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All fellow European users should sign the petition! By the way, this is an official European Union initiative, it's safe and useful to add your vote (unlike th

All fellow European users should sign the petition! By the way, this is an official European Union initiative, it's safe and useful to add your vote (unlike those useless petitions on websites such as Change.org).

encom 2y ago
Official or not, I've never seen the government care even a little bit about a petition, beyond paying it lip service until the news cycle moves on to the next current thing.
- jowea 2y ago
  I don't know, I think the EU has already proven itself willing to regulate the tech industry. And I'm not sure if this proposal is something that the game industry would die on a hill to stop. So getting some relatively easy brownie points from a citizen initiative seems plausible. At a minimum it has the safe effect as any other hopeless change.org petition, media attention.
- zachrip 2y ago
  I'm sure folks here could list dozens of times they have helped, but also defeatism in general isn't a useful tool for solving problems.
  - johnnyanmac 2y ago
    if your best rebuttal is "well just stay positive" in a year of negatives, I'm not going to be very optimistic in the end. It just feels like people denying the reality around them.
    - account42 2y ago
      It's more of a you are guaranteed to miss all the shots you don't take situation. Signing a petition isn't exactly a high cost so even if the chance to succeed is lot you might as well.
- niemandhier 2y ago
  Those ECI that manage to get the needed vote count do influence the EU politics. Since ECIs were launched in 2012, 110 initiatives were started, 10 reached the needed vote count. Of these 2 made actual impact: - Ban Glyphosate led to a reevaluation of the pesticide approval procedure - End The Cage Age made the commission reevaluate the factors for a transition int the agriculture sector. This particular initiative about games will probably face much less head wind, since: 1. It is about customer rights ( which the EU just loves ) 2. It will disproportionately impact American companies
  - jowea 2y ago
    I wonder if CDPR will support this proposal if it gets somewhere.
    - Hamuko 2y ago
      I never played it, but apparently Gwent had a pretty graceful termination of support where they kinda handed the game to the "community" and allowed them to keep the game going. Don't know if they would support legislation to enshrine those kinds of practices into law, but at least CDPR seems to be more on this side of things.
    - perihelions 2y ago
      I'm sure the company that differentiates itself by marketing a DRM-free gaming platform would certainly voice support of similar concepts, but more importantly, why should we care? CDPR's politics is merely the politics of one person, their CEO. Is the EU a democracy of hundreds of millions of citizens, or is it an oligarchy of CEO's? It doesn't matter one bit what a corporate spokesman says about democratic legislation and IMHO it feels unwholesome to even bring it up.
      - johnnyanmac 2y ago
        > but more importantly, why should we care? Because money talks, and CDPR has lots of Witcher/Cyberpunk money. Yes, we are in 2024 an oligarchy of ceo's facading like a (republic) democracy. Wholesomeness was never in the equation. If you have any benevolent dictators, you may as well use them.
- sighinggoldfish 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiativ... " The European Citizens' Initiative (ECI) is a European Union (EU) mechanism aimed at increasing direct democracy by enabling "EU citizens to participate directly in the development of EU policies",[1] introduced with the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007. This popular initiative enables one million citizens of the European Union,[2] with a minimum number of nationals from at least seven member states, to call directly on the European Commission to propose a legal act (notably a Directive or Regulation) in an area where the member states have conferred powers onto the EU level. This right to request the commission to initiate a legislative proposal puts citizens on the same footing as the European Parliament and the European Council "
  - encom 2y ago
    I know what it is. The danish government set up a similar thing. It has had zero impact on anything. Hence my scepticism.
    - sighinggoldfish 2y ago
      I moved to Denmark so hello! :) I'm curious of your examples actually as I'd like to learn more about the Danish process specifically. As for ECIs, the wikipedia page does show successes. Of course I have my doubts this will even reach the necessary 1 million signatures (and honestly needs more cause many will be invalidated), but if it does reach 1 million, it does have a shot of doing something!
      - encom 2y ago
        Welcome to Denmark. Pardon the weather. The danish petition site is here: https://borgerforslag.dk/ https://borgerforslag.dk/ Of 1843 petitions, 52 have been presented in the Folketing, and some of those are silly/unrealistic, like removing tax on fuel. Others had very widespread support and a lot of news coverage, like banning genital mutilation of children, but nothing came of that. I think the enthusiasm for this initiative has declined greatly, since only one petition got enough votes (50.000) in 2024 to reach the Folketing. People have realised it's pointless.
IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago
Only EU users can sign, to be clear
- rawbot 2y ago
  Only EU citizens, not even permanent residents.
  - account42 2y ago
    Which makes sense, no? Having a say in how the country (or union in this case) is run is precisely the difference between a (permanent) resident and a citizen.
larschdk 2y ago
As a European, and avid gamer, I support part of the intent here, but I don't think that this has any chance of causing any kind of practical change. The petition is way too broad and doesn't address any specific instances of consumer deceptive practices. - It's often not practical: There is a vast spectrum of business models where "playable state" requires significant investment, or is even not technically feasible. It could require the company to give up additional intellectual property (server side). It could require them to relicense 3rd party brands (such as The Crew had license for car models), or assets (music). It could involve 3rd party software re-licensing. - There's a precedent of existing software licensing models. The EU would need to tear up such models completely to enable this. - You already agreed to the EULA/ToS when you signed up for the service. You were informed that the service could go down. Chose other games if you don't like this. - Out of scope: The EU will look at business practices if they involve deception and exploitation, but other than that, markets are generally liberal. We don't just demand specific services from companies. At best, we can hope for clearer information to ensure that consumers are well informed of what they are paying for (perpetual license vs time-limited subscription to a live service.
- nkrisc 2y ago
  > You already agreed to the EULA/ToS when you signed up for the service. You were informed that the service could go down. Chose other games if you don't like this. This information disclosure is the real issue. Companies use the EULA/TOS to bury information that they know consumers are unlikely to read but also fulfill their legal obligations. Often it’s difficult to even find this information until after you buy it, and they’re certainly not telling you on their Steam store page that they will completely kill the game at some point in the future.
  - matly 2y ago
    There is an EU Court ruling that found that EULA/TOS are not applicable or enforceable in Europe, so that's kind of a non-issue. Also, this doesn't really change the outcome if a publisher would be forced to guarantee usability of their product after they shut down servers, does it? https://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?num=C-128/11 https://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?num=C-128/11
perihelions 2y ago
- "useful" Virtually no petitions ever reach the thresholds. The effect of this system is to blunt the formation of actually-effective organized political groups, by burning their time and energy and feel like they're "participating" in EU lawmaking—and subsequently gaslight them into thinking they lack popular support, and should probably give up. When in fact many of the petitions are broadly popular among anyone who's polled; it's just that at its core it's an anti-democratic system set up to perpetuate laws in the opposite direction of what >50% of people actually want. Few people are truly passionate about–in this example–video game consumer protection laws, but I'd wager an overwhelming majority of anyone who's asked would side with consumer protection over consumer abuse.
- rawbot 2y ago
  > Virtually no petitions ever reach the thresholds. Someone needs to try, right? Once it fails, then we can be pessimistic.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
robertlagrant 2y ago
What does it mean to be safe in this case?
- rawbot 2y ago
  Change.org can keep and sell your info to third parties (maybe they are already doing it, i.e. you are the product). I'm not claiming it would be safe in a cybersec way in the EU's servers, but at least they won't sell it.
michaelcampbell 2y ago
> unlike those useless petitions on websites such as Change.org I've always thought change.org was just a brilliantly constructed honeypot for rage.

encom 2y ago

Official or not, I've never seen the government care even a little bit about a petition, beyond paying it lip service until the news cycle moves on to the next current thing.

jowea 2y ago
I don't know, I think the EU has already proven itself willing to regulate the tech industry. And I'm not sure if this proposal is something that the game industry would die on a hill to stop. So getting some relatively easy brownie points from a citizen initiative seems plausible. At a minimum it has the safe effect as any other hopeless change.org petition, media attention.
zachrip 2y ago
I'm sure folks here could list dozens of times they have helped, but also defeatism in general isn't a useful tool for solving problems.
- johnnyanmac 2y ago
  if your best rebuttal is "well just stay positive" in a year of negatives, I'm not going to be very optimistic in the end. It just feels like people denying the reality around them.
  - account42 2y ago
    It's more of a you are guaranteed to miss all the shots you don't take situation. Signing a petition isn't exactly a high cost so even if the chance to succeed is lot you might as well.
niemandhier 2y ago
Those ECI that manage to get the needed vote count do influence the EU politics. Since ECIs were launched in 2012, 110 initiatives were started, 10 reached the needed vote count. Of these 2 made actual impact: - Ban Glyphosate led to a reevaluation of the pesticide approval procedure - End The Cage Age made the commission reevaluate the factors for a transition int the agriculture sector. This particular initiative about games will probably face much less head wind, since: 1. It is about customer rights ( which the EU just loves ) 2. It will disproportionately impact American companies
- jowea 2y ago
  I wonder if CDPR will support this proposal if it gets somewhere.
  - Hamuko 2y ago
    I never played it, but apparently Gwent had a pretty graceful termination of support where they kinda handed the game to the "community" and allowed them to keep the game going. Don't know if they would support legislation to enshrine those kinds of practices into law, but at least CDPR seems to be more on this side of things.
  - perihelions 2y ago
    I'm sure the company that differentiates itself by marketing a DRM-free gaming platform would certainly voice support of similar concepts, but more importantly, why should we care? CDPR's politics is merely the politics of one person, their CEO. Is the EU a democracy of hundreds of millions of citizens, or is it an oligarchy of CEO's? It doesn't matter one bit what a corporate spokesman says about democratic legislation and IMHO it feels unwholesome to even bring it up.
    - johnnyanmac 2y ago
      > but more importantly, why should we care? Because money talks, and CDPR has lots of Witcher/Cyberpunk money. Yes, we are in 2024 an oligarchy of ceo's facading like a (republic) democracy. Wholesomeness was never in the equation. If you have any benevolent dictators, you may as well use them.
sighinggoldfish 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Citizens%27_Initiativ... " The European Citizens' Initiative (ECI) is a European Union (EU) mechanism aimed at increasing direct democracy by enabling "EU citizens to participate directly in the development of EU policies",[1] introduced with the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007. This popular initiative enables one million citizens of the European Union,[2] with a minimum number of nationals from at least seven member states, to call directly on the European Commission to propose a legal act (notably a Directive or Regulation) in an area where the member states have conferred powers onto the EU level. This right to request the commission to initiate a legislative proposal puts citizens on the same footing as the European Parliament and the European Council "
- encom 2y ago
  I know what it is. The danish government set up a similar thing. It has had zero impact on anything. Hence my scepticism.
  - sighinggoldfish 2y ago
    I moved to Denmark so hello! :) I'm curious of your examples actually as I'd like to learn more about the Danish process specifically. As for ECIs, the wikipedia page does show successes. Of course I have my doubts this will even reach the necessary 1 million signatures (and honestly needs more cause many will be invalidated), but if it does reach 1 million, it does have a shot of doing something!
    - encom 2y ago
      Welcome to Denmark. Pardon the weather. The danish petition site is here: https://borgerforslag.dk/ https://borgerforslag.dk/ Of 1843 petitions, 52 have been presented in the Folketing, and some of those are silly/unrealistic, like removing tax on fuel. Others had very widespread support and a lot of news coverage, like banning genital mutilation of children, but nothing came of that. I think the enthusiasm for this initiative has declined greatly, since only one petition got enough votes (50.000) in 2024 to reach the Folketing. People have realised it's pointless.

IG_Semmelweiss 2y ago

Only EU users can sign, to be clear

rawbot 2y ago
Only EU citizens, not even permanent residents.
- account42 2y ago
  Which makes sense, no? Having a say in how the country (or union in this case) is run is precisely the difference between a (permanent) resident and a citizen.

larschdk 2y ago

As a European, and avid gamer, I support part of the intent here, but I don't think that this has any chance of causing any kind of practical change. The petition is way too broad and doesn't address any specific instances of consumer deceptive practices. - It's often not practical: There is a vast spectrum of business models where "playable state" requires significant investment, or is even not technically feasible. It could require the company to give up additional intellectual property (server side). It could require them to relicense 3rd party brands (such as The Crew had license for car models), or assets (music). It could involve 3rd party software re-licensing. - There's a precedent of existing software licensing models. The EU would need to tear up such models completely to enable this. - You already agreed to the EULA/ToS when you signed up for the service. You were informed that the service could go down. Chose other games if you don't like this. - Out of scope: The EU will look at business practices if they involve deception and exploitation, but other than that, markets are generally liberal. We don't just demand specific services from companies. At best, we can hope for clearer information to ensure that consumers are well informed of what they are paying for (perpetual license vs time-limited subscription to a live service.

nkrisc 2y ago
> You already agreed to the EULA/ToS when you signed up for the service. You were informed that the service could go down. Chose other games if you don't like this. This information disclosure is the real issue. Companies use the EULA/TOS to bury information that they know consumers are unlikely to read but also fulfill their legal obligations. Often it’s difficult to even find this information until after you buy it, and they’re certainly not telling you on their Steam store page that they will completely kill the game at some point in the future.
- matly 2y ago
  There is an EU Court ruling that found that EULA/TOS are not applicable or enforceable in Europe, so that's kind of a non-issue. Also, this doesn't really change the outcome if a publisher would be forced to guarantee usability of their product after they shut down servers, does it? https://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?num=C-128/11 https://curia.europa.eu/juris/liste.jsf?num=C-128/11

perihelions 2y ago

- "useful" Virtually no petitions ever reach the thresholds. The effect of this system is to blunt the formation of actually-effective organized political groups, by burning their time and energy and feel like they're "participating" in EU lawmaking—and subsequently gaslight them into thinking they lack popular support, and should probably give up. When in fact many of the petitions are broadly popular among anyone who's polled; it's just that at its core it's an anti-democratic system set up to perpetuate laws in the opposite direction of what >50% of people actually want. Few people are truly passionate about–in this example–video game consumer protection laws, but I'd wager an overwhelming majority of anyone who's asked would side with consumer protection over consumer abuse.

rawbot 2y ago
> Virtually no petitions ever reach the thresholds. Someone needs to try, right? Once it fails, then we can be pessimistic.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

robertlagrant 2y ago

What does it mean to be safe in this case?

rawbot 2y ago
Change.org can keep and sell your info to third parties (maybe they are already doing it, i.e. you are the product). I'm not claiming it would be safe in a cybersec way in the EU's servers, but at least they won't sell it.

michaelcampbell 2y ago

> unlike those useless petitions on websites such as Change.org I've always thought change.org was just a brilliantly constructed honeypot for rage.