3 ms·

>So make sure the fermentation vessel is airtight and everything is clean Making it airtight would actually increase the risk of botulism, because the bacteria

>So make sure the fermentation vessel is airtight and everything is clean Making it airtight would actually increase the risk of botulism, because the bacteria is anaerobic. Also, the botulism bacteria wouldn't survive such an acidic and salty fermentation environment anyway. Have a better chance of getting both struck by lightning and winning the lottery multiple times in a row than dying from botulism, even in an environment that's ideal for it. I wonder why botulism even gets a mention in modern discussions of traditional fermenting and food preservation. It's unbelievably rare and really only occurs in modern preservation methods, like canning, and commercially-prepared food. I just don't understand why it gets a mention at all. When I see it pop up in tutorials about traditional curing and fermenting, it's an immediate red flag about the quality of the tutorial. It's one of those common misinformation things that won't die because of all the momentum behind it. And the misinformation ought to stop, because it's giving us cancer, because industry and home-curers think they need to load nitrites into their meat to make it safe, which is terrible for you.

bsder 2y ago
> I wonder why botulism even gets a mention in modern discussions of traditional fermenting and food preservation. Because too many "natural health" people don't understand actual health risks. Botulism pops up because "<flavor> infused oils" became a thing and people started dumping uncooked garlic into them. And then a bunch of people got sick with botulism because a low salt, neutral pH, anerobic (the oil blocks oxygen) environment is practically tailor-made for incubating botulism. "Classic" recipes for preservation generally make sure to have salt, nitrates, low pH and little oil/fat (and generally a combination of them). Guess why? Most pathogens don't like salts (curing) or acid (most canning). Some of the worst (like botulism) don't like oxygen and oil/fat can block oxygen. You can even see the ignorance in the comments here. Some people were talking about putting non-acidic things in a vacuum seal without a pressure boil (240-250F). No. Bad. Very Bad. Take a look at things playing out in "raw milk" right now. "Pasteurization" was hailed as a breakthrough for a reason--it is. I hate the "industrialization" of our food chain as much as anybody (I simply cannot find a tomato that doesn't suck). However, you solve that by breaking up the cartels--not by wiping out food safety. As for nitrates, a lot of the problem is the fact that the "industrial" process pumps the meat with a LOT more nitrates than people would use at home. When properly cured, most of the nitrates in meat have chemically reacted and there is very little residual. Industrial processes worry more about running out and so pump the meat so full of them that there is a ton of nitrate still left in the meat even after curing. It is this unreacted nitrate residue that seems to "cause problems".
- bigstrat2003 2y ago
  > Take a look at things playing out in "raw milk" right now. "Pasteurization" was hailed as a breakthrough for a reason--it is. Unfortunately, it also makes the milk taste awful. I cannot stand the taste of pasteurized milk, it makes me almost throw up. Raw milk is at least tolerable, if not the tastiest thing in the world.
  - Nursie 2y ago
    I think that's a very personal take. I find pasteurised milk quite tasty. I'm probably unusual in that I also don't mind UHT, and am quite fond of Soy, oat and hazelnut milks as well. But lots of people get on with 'normal' milk just fine.
  - vibrio 2y ago
    I like my chances with raw oysters (vibrio) over raw milk (listeria), and as an infectious disease geek, vibro vulnificus terrifies me. In both cases it’s crucial to be comfortable with the source, processes, and supply chain.
- Nursie 2y ago
  > I simply cannot find a tomato that doesn't suck Are you in Australia? If so I feel your pain. The tomatoes available here taste of basically nothing. In the UK it was the same for most cheap/ordinary/mainstream tomatoes, but you could at least buy the fancy ones from the better/more expensive supermarkets and get something good. Here in Aus that's not really even an option, the brown ones marketed as "Kumato" are the only thing I've found with really any flavour at all, when they're available. I can't really even find good ones at farmers markets or upmarket grocers, just the same "Truss", "Vine Ripened" and "Roma" varieties that are like crunchy water.
  - sakerbos 2y ago
    Ooh I felt the same after moving to Australia from South Africa. We found that the veggies tasted blander in general and I have no idea why. Keen to plant some heirloom tomatoes in the spring.

bsder 2y ago

> I wonder why botulism even gets a mention in modern discussions of traditional fermenting and food preservation. Because too many "natural health" people don't understand actual health risks. Botulism pops up because "<flavor> infused oils" became a thing and people started dumping uncooked garlic into them. And then a bunch of people got sick with botulism because a low salt, neutral pH, anerobic (the oil blocks oxygen) environment is practically tailor-made for incubating botulism. "Classic" recipes for preservation generally make sure to have salt, nitrates, low pH and little oil/fat (and generally a combination of them). Guess why? Most pathogens don't like salts (curing) or acid (most canning). Some of the worst (like botulism) don't like oxygen and oil/fat can block oxygen. You can even see the ignorance in the comments here. Some people were talking about putting non-acidic things in a vacuum seal without a pressure boil (240-250F). No. Bad. Very Bad. Take a look at things playing out in "raw milk" right now. "Pasteurization" was hailed as a breakthrough for a reason--it is. I hate the "industrialization" of our food chain as much as anybody (I simply cannot find a tomato that doesn't suck). However, you solve that by breaking up the cartels--not by wiping out food safety. As for nitrates, a lot of the problem is the fact that the "industrial" process pumps the meat with a LOT more nitrates than people would use at home. When properly cured, most of the nitrates in meat have chemically reacted and there is very little residual. Industrial processes worry more about running out and so pump the meat so full of them that there is a ton of nitrate still left in the meat even after curing. It is this unreacted nitrate residue that seems to "cause problems".

bigstrat2003 2y ago
> Take a look at things playing out in "raw milk" right now. "Pasteurization" was hailed as a breakthrough for a reason--it is. Unfortunately, it also makes the milk taste awful. I cannot stand the taste of pasteurized milk, it makes me almost throw up. Raw milk is at least tolerable, if not the tastiest thing in the world.
- Nursie 2y ago
  I think that's a very personal take. I find pasteurised milk quite tasty. I'm probably unusual in that I also don't mind UHT, and am quite fond of Soy, oat and hazelnut milks as well. But lots of people get on with 'normal' milk just fine.
- vibrio 2y ago
  I like my chances with raw oysters (vibrio) over raw milk (listeria), and as an infectious disease geek, vibro vulnificus terrifies me. In both cases it’s crucial to be comfortable with the source, processes, and supply chain.
Nursie 2y ago
> I simply cannot find a tomato that doesn't suck Are you in Australia? If so I feel your pain. The tomatoes available here taste of basically nothing. In the UK it was the same for most cheap/ordinary/mainstream tomatoes, but you could at least buy the fancy ones from the better/more expensive supermarkets and get something good. Here in Aus that's not really even an option, the brown ones marketed as "Kumato" are the only thing I've found with really any flavour at all, when they're available. I can't really even find good ones at farmers markets or upmarket grocers, just the same "Truss", "Vine Ripened" and "Roma" varieties that are like crunchy water.
- sakerbos 2y ago
  Ooh I felt the same after moving to Australia from South Africa. We found that the veggies tasted blander in general and I have no idea why. Keen to plant some heirloom tomatoes in the spring.