4 ms·

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26143779

dredmorbius 2y ago
The good news, maybe, is that "E-Paper" (transflective LCD displays), capable of much higher refresh rates (60 -- 180 Hz), though with greater power draw and lacking E-Ink (electrophoretic) display's persistence, but otherwise sharing bright-light / daylit visibility, are starting to appear. What I've seen of E-Paper displays isn't especially encouraging on the cost front, as similarly-sized displays seem to have roughly comparable costs (~US$800 for a 13.3" display). But at least there should be a technologically-independent option, with the prospect for price competition.
- mattkevan 2y ago
  I’ve been using Daylight Computer’s new Android tablet for a while now, which has a 60fps reflective grayscale LCD screen. During the day it looks and behaves like E-paper, but with a much faster display rate. It’s also got a warm backlight for use at night. When the backlight is off the contrast is lower than the E-ink Carta panel used in the Remarkable and Boox tablets, but the backlight and fast refresh really help make up for it. https://daylightcomputer.com/ https://daylightcomputer.com/
  - bee_rider 2y ago
    They seem to be sold out for quite a while, sadly. Good for them, though, I hope they means they’ll grow.
    - cududa 2y ago
      Watching videos/ interviews of the founder, it sounds like he’s very vey focussed on scaling this up to build affordable and durable wall sized versions of the display tech. I’m certainly rooting for them. I hope they have more devices available soon
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    How's battery life? Have you compared sessions where you're principally, say, reading books with a bookreader app vs. Web browsing, or using other apps? My experience on the BOOX, an E-ink device, is that web browsing (Einkbro) consumes battery at ~10x the hourly rate that reading books (Neoreader) does. How much of that is active display, and how much is other CPU usage, I don't know.
    - thaumasiotes 2y ago
      My experience on the reMarkable 2 is that leaving it "off", showing the screen it displays when it detects that you haven't done anything for a while, will drain the battery in a matter of days, whereas leaving it "off", showing the screen it displays when you manually navigate into the shutdown menu and tell it to turn off, drains the battery in a matter of months. I assume that none of the difference is in active display; the display is static in either case.
      - dredmorbius 2y ago
        The Remarkable2 is an E-Ink device. I'd asked mattkevan as they are using a transflective LCD-based "E-Paper" device. The technologies have a similar appearance, but utilise different technologies (electrophoretic vs. liquid crystal). Principle differences are the responsiveness of the display (LCD is far faster) and power consumption (LCD draws constant power, the display clears when voltage potential is removed, electrophoretic displays persist indefinitely when power is off). As I'd noted in the comment you're replying to, I've used an E-Ink device for years, and am familiar with its power consumption characteristics.
- kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
  Transflectve LCDs can't compete against Eink on contrast. They are inherently compromised on light transmission because of the polarizers and the modern desire for [back|front]light support.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    I'm aware of LCD's inherent contrast handicap due to polarising filters. That said, E-ink also has a relatively low contrast ratio. Interestingly, that turns into a benefit under direct sunlight, where ink-on-paper is often too bright. Finding current specs is challenging, but E-Ink Carta, as of 2013 (over a decade ago) was citing a 15:1 contrast ratio: <https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E_Ink_Carta https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E_Ink_Carta> Edit/Update: A more recent HN comment gives 12:1 as applying to most E-Ink displays as of 2020, with 8:1 being more common: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22832452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22832452> I suspect current displays are somewhat better, and I'm seeing a "50% improvement" comment bandied about but without a corresponding contrast ratio. Earlier displays had an 8:1 ratio. In practice, displays will have worse contrast with additional layers on top of the display, such as a Wacom tablet, capacitive touch, frontlight, and any surface "tooth" treatment. E-Paper cites a 30:1 ratio, which would be far greater contrast: <https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/ https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/> I've had direct personal experience with E-Ink, but not with transflective LCD tablet displays. I suspect that in practice the displays are reasonably comparable in terms of contrast.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    > and the modern desire for [back|front]light support. I had a keyboard kindle that came with a case that included a dim orange pull-out booklight. I wish we could still get that. It was much more relaxing to read by than the modern uniform white glow from the page itself.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      You can always use a clip-on book light, or other external light source. <https://accessorytosuccess.com/blogs/tools/best-book-light-reading-light-top-picks-for-2023 https://accessorytosuccess.com/blogs/tools/best-book-light-r...>
IAmNotACellist 2y ago
He calls it the broken nature of the patent system, but I'm sitting here wondering why the creators of that technology shouldn't be handsomely rewarded for it, for a period of time? It's not like they're sitting on it (Creative Labs comes to mind), but rather releasing displays that just make devices cost more than they otherwise will. A similar thing happened the tech behind Wacom devices--they enjoyed market dominance, the patent ran out, and now we have super cheap high-precision digital art devices.
- dartharva 2y ago
  From further down the thread, it seems it has been well beyond two decades and the original patents are already long expired. They are not playing fair - they are evergreening their patents with marginal changes which is illegal in countries where IP laws aren't a joke unlike the US.

The good news, maybe, is that "E-Paper" (transflective LCD displays), capable of much higher refresh rates (60 -- 180 Hz), though with greater power draw and lacking E-Ink (electrophoretic) display's persistence, but otherwise sharing bright-light / daylit visibility, are starting to appear. What I've seen of E-Paper displays isn't especially encouraging on the cost front, as similarly-sized displays seem to have roughly comparable costs (~US$800 for a 13.3" display). But at least there should be a technologically-independent option, with the prospect for price competition.

mattkevan 2y ago
I’ve been using Daylight Computer’s new Android tablet for a while now, which has a 60fps reflective grayscale LCD screen. During the day it looks and behaves like E-paper, but with a much faster display rate. It’s also got a warm backlight for use at night. When the backlight is off the contrast is lower than the E-ink Carta panel used in the Remarkable and Boox tablets, but the backlight and fast refresh really help make up for it. https://daylightcomputer.com/ https://daylightcomputer.com/
- bee_rider 2y ago
  They seem to be sold out for quite a while, sadly. Good for them, though, I hope they means they’ll grow.
  - cududa 2y ago
    Watching videos/ interviews of the founder, it sounds like he’s very vey focussed on scaling this up to build affordable and durable wall sized versions of the display tech. I’m certainly rooting for them. I hope they have more devices available soon
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  How's battery life? Have you compared sessions where you're principally, say, reading books with a bookreader app vs. Web browsing, or using other apps? My experience on the BOOX, an E-ink device, is that web browsing (Einkbro) consumes battery at ~10x the hourly rate that reading books (Neoreader) does. How much of that is active display, and how much is other CPU usage, I don't know.
  - thaumasiotes 2y ago
    My experience on the reMarkable 2 is that leaving it "off", showing the screen it displays when it detects that you haven't done anything for a while, will drain the battery in a matter of days, whereas leaving it "off", showing the screen it displays when you manually navigate into the shutdown menu and tell it to turn off, drains the battery in a matter of months. I assume that none of the difference is in active display; the display is static in either case.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      The Remarkable2 is an E-Ink device. I'd asked mattkevan as they are using a transflective LCD-based "E-Paper" device. The technologies have a similar appearance, but utilise different technologies (electrophoretic vs. liquid crystal). Principle differences are the responsiveness of the display (LCD is far faster) and power consumption (LCD draws constant power, the display clears when voltage potential is removed, electrophoretic displays persist indefinitely when power is off). As I'd noted in the comment you're replying to, I've used an E-Ink device for years, and am familiar with its power consumption characteristics.
kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
Transflectve LCDs can't compete against Eink on contrast. They are inherently compromised on light transmission because of the polarizers and the modern desire for [back|front]light support.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  I'm aware of LCD's inherent contrast handicap due to polarising filters. That said, E-ink also has a relatively low contrast ratio. Interestingly, that turns into a benefit under direct sunlight, where ink-on-paper is often too bright. Finding current specs is challenging, but E-Ink Carta, as of 2013 (over a decade ago) was citing a 15:1 contrast ratio: <https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E_Ink_Carta https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/E_Ink_Carta> Edit/Update: A more recent HN comment gives 12:1 as applying to most E-Ink displays as of 2020, with 8:1 being more common: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22832452 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22832452> I suspect current displays are somewhat better, and I'm seeing a "50% improvement" comment bandied about but without a corresponding contrast ratio. Earlier displays had an 8:1 ratio. In practice, displays will have worse contrast with additional layers on top of the display, such as a Wacom tablet, capacitive touch, frontlight, and any surface "tooth" treatment. E-Paper cites a 30:1 ratio, which would be far greater contrast: <https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/ https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/> I've had direct personal experience with E-Ink, but not with transflective LCD tablet displays. I suspect that in practice the displays are reasonably comparable in terms of contrast.
- thaumasiotes 2y ago
  > and the modern desire for [back|front]light support. I had a keyboard kindle that came with a case that included a dim orange pull-out booklight. I wish we could still get that. It was much more relaxing to read by than the modern uniform white glow from the page itself.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    You can always use a clip-on book light, or other external light source. <https://accessorytosuccess.com/blogs/tools/best-book-light-reading-light-top-picks-for-2023 https://accessorytosuccess.com/blogs/tools/best-book-light-r...>

IAmNotACellist 2y ago

He calls it the broken nature of the patent system, but I'm sitting here wondering why the creators of that technology shouldn't be handsomely rewarded for it, for a period of time? It's not like they're sitting on it (Creative Labs comes to mind), but rather releasing displays that just make devices cost more than they otherwise will. A similar thing happened the tech behind Wacom devices--they enjoyed market dominance, the patent ran out, and now we have super cheap high-precision digital art devices.

dartharva 2y ago
From further down the thread, it seems it has been well beyond two decades and the original patents are already long expired. They are not playing fair - they are evergreening their patents with marginal changes which is illegal in countries where IP laws aren't a joke unlike the US.