5 ms·

'Charger hogs' are ruining the electric vehicle experience

19 points by rntn 2y ago

teachmetolearn 2y ago
This issue will go away with time, right now there are a few reasons for this issue. 1. EA does not have enough charger stalls, there is a lot of demand but utilites make it hard to build so they take a lot of time. 2. Some people are new to EVs and have charge anxiety / dont really understand how it works, they will get it in time. 3. Some people have free charging so they charge until 100% because its free, companies introduced these programs to sell cars and as these programs expire (usually 2 or 3 years max after purchase of the vehicle) it will get better. We are still in the beginning process of adopting this tech and there will be some growing pains but we will get there. Note: The one thing I can't understand is why Elon is handicapping the supercharger expansion. Tesla has by far the best charging experience and their chargers are packed. Now is the time where they can swoop in and take over the market. They can even spin out supercharging as an independent company and take it public.
- avidiax 2y ago
  There is a 4th reason. EA is not investing in features to prevent this. They have added an 80% cap to a handful of busy chargers in California. What they should do is add an electronic queue for the chargers, and automatically add the $0.40/minute idle rate to any charging above 80% when someone is queued for your charger. They also need to do something about people with low voltage cars taking the high voltage spots. Something like a time factor in the price for the high voltage stations, to discourage low voltage cars using those unless necessary.
  - linotype 2y ago
    Teslas are 400v up until the CyberTruck. You probably mean low kW. If I pull up to a charging station and it’s open and 350 kW, you better believe it I’ll be charging my 100 kW max car in that spot, and I shouldn’t haven’t to pay more for the same kWh.
    - avidiax 2y ago
      It's both. Some new cars have 800V architecture and will be able to benefit from high voltage chargers as they roll out. There are also cars that can't charge at 350kW, but still take a 350kW charger. Charging a 100kW car in the 350kW bay is fine, but these owners should be given some reason to prefer a 100kW or 150kW charger if it's available. I like the idea of using someone being queued for the charger to trigger an infrastructure charge if you are underutilizing the charger, just like we already do if you are simply parked there and not charging. At the very least, require that drivers at least try to use the charger that best matches their car if it's available. Require that they plug in, or that they document a non-EV in the space before connecting to an over-spec charger.
      - linotype 2y ago
        How about no. I’m not going to fill out a form to charge my car. I use the 150 kW chargers when available, 350 kW when not. I rarely DC fast charge anyway. Edit: yeah feel free to downvote me. I believe in not just the rich being able to fast charge without issue.
        gruez 2y ago
        >I believe in not just the rich being able to fast charge without issue. What about the competing interest of making charging fast and convenient, which surely would drive EV adoption? Is slowing the energy transition a worthwhile cost in the pursuit of equity?
        linotype 2y ago
        Most EVs now can charge at over 100 kW peak, and that means most EVs will be able to in five years. I don’t see how it’s that big of a deal to allow people with older, used EVs to charge at all stations. Even charging companies have this stance.
        avidiax 2y ago
  - teachmetolearn 2y ago
    Definitely agree with this, last time I was at the EA charger I thought it was comical seeing Rivans and Audis waiting for an IKEA truck (ford van) that was creeping up from 95%. While these measures will help, the reality is that EA did not invest in enough chargers per location.
- Temporary_31337 2y ago
  Re Tesla superchargers - because Tesla is currently valued as a tech company at multiples of PE. Chargers are utility companies and command very low margins high upfront costs and high maintenance so are usually priced pretty low. In many instances utility companies that are private don’t even make profits and have to be rescued by the government and taxpayers in the long run so yeah that’s why.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    Also here probably foresees being forced to open up the Tesla charger network (maybe that's always happening?) so why bother to invest?
  - teachmetolearn 2y ago
    I hear you, but gas stations make money, right? Can't Tesla adopt the same model and lease parcels of Supercharger land to convenience stores? If you are correct that they are a utility and should be priced low, then Superchargers would be detrimental to Tesla's stock price and should be spun out as a separate utility company with lower margins. This would create a better EV experience, thus furthering Tesla's goal.
- mysterydip 2y ago
  > as these programs expire (usually 2 or 3 years max after purchase of the vehicle) it will get better. Won't next year's batch of new EV owners be doing the same thing? Or have companies stopped offering the incentive?
  - teachmetolearn 2y ago
    Yeah your right, I thought car manufacturers would slow this down considering how expensive this has to be for them but here is a link showing all the offers available today if you buy a new EV https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/evs-with-free-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/evs-with-free-charging.html This is really annoying and should stop
jeffreportmill1 2y ago
This article paints a false image of EV life. We have owned a couple EVs for 6 years now and have only had to charge at charging station a few dozen times and never had to wait. I’m sure we spend dramatically less time refueling overall, since we refuel at home, overnight, once or twice a week. Actually, we did have to wait once for charging in the middle of Oklahoma (at the time a bit of a charging desert). It was at a casino, and a fellow Tesla owner had shot the place up with an assault rifle. It took almost 2 hours for the crime scene techs to collect bullet casings and clear the chargers (no one was hurt - the shooter was on LSD and defending the rest of us from space aliens). Law enforcement offered the shooter a ride - so he didn’t even need the charge.
- tredre3 2y ago
  > This article paints a false image of EV life. Do you genuinely believe that everybody owns a house and/or have a dedicated parking spot with an accessible charger?
  - closeparen 2y ago
    I know about 7 EV owners. All have single family homes and garages; none have home charging.
    - linotype 2y ago
      Have you talked to them about it? All in it is usually under $1k to get one installed and would be cheaper in the long run and better on the battery.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I have primarily supercharged my 2018 Model S (100kw) over ~140k miles and only have 8% battery degradation.
        Nextgrid 2y ago
yieldcrv 2y ago
I don't think the proposed measures really help Myself and many others walk away from their vehicles while charging Finding out that my car stopped charging for some reason doesn't make me rush back to a charging station because 9 out of 10 times that reason is that the station broke for me and anyone else that would show up. So there is no reason to move my car.
- tredre3 2y ago
  The only solution would be for stations to charge a base fee for every minute spent on a charger (excluding malfunctions). But I suspect many EV drivers would be against such measure.
  - SkyPuncher 2y ago
    Some stations do charge an idle fee.
teeray 2y ago
> I was waiting behind people with batteries that were 92%, 94% and even 97% full, as I could see on the charger screens. Still, they stayed there. I made my own situation worse by giving up on one location and going to another with more chargers, but there were even more EVs waiting there. It sounds like marginal charging past 80% is too cheap per percentage point. If you want to encourage throughput, you have to make it expensive to be a "hog" in TFA's parlance.
rlpb 2y ago
For my 2015 Leaf, 80% means about 15 kWh. Sometimes I need more than that to get home, or even to the next charger. Percentage charge is not the best measure here. I appreciate that charge rates slow down after around 80% regardless of capacity, but sometimes I have no choice but to continue charging to 90%. That extra 10% is significant for me!
- nullc 2y ago
  FWIW, it's now possible to retrofit later model year batteries to older Leafs, giving you a replacement path which is much cheaper than the factory solution and will substantially expand your capacity-- something to keep in mind as you tire of fighting with the diminishing range. :)
  - rlpb 2y ago
    Indeed, although our fear is that something unrelated will fail, so it's a bit of a risk on the capital expenditure.

19 points by rntn 2y ago

This issue will go away with time, right now there are a few reasons for this issue. 1. EA does not have enough charger stalls, there is a lot of demand but utilites make it hard to build so they take a lot of time. 2. Some people are new to EVs and have charge anxiety / dont really understand how it works, they will get it in time. 3. Some people have free charging so they charge until 100% because its free, companies introduced these programs to sell cars and as these programs expire (usually 2 or 3 years max after purchase of the vehicle) it will get better. We are still in the beginning process of adopting this tech and there will be some growing pains but we will get there. Note: The one thing I can't understand is why Elon is handicapping the supercharger expansion. Tesla has by far the best charging experience and their chargers are packed. Now is the time where they can swoop in and take over the market. They can even spin out supercharging as an independent company and take it public.

avidiax 2y ago
There is a 4th reason. EA is not investing in features to prevent this. They have added an 80% cap to a handful of busy chargers in California. What they should do is add an electronic queue for the chargers, and automatically add the $0.40/minute idle rate to any charging above 80% when someone is queued for your charger. They also need to do something about people with low voltage cars taking the high voltage spots. Something like a time factor in the price for the high voltage stations, to discourage low voltage cars using those unless necessary.
- linotype 2y ago
  Teslas are 400v up until the CyberTruck. You probably mean low kW. If I pull up to a charging station and it’s open and 350 kW, you better believe it I’ll be charging my 100 kW max car in that spot, and I shouldn’t haven’t to pay more for the same kWh.
  - avidiax 2y ago
    It's both. Some new cars have 800V architecture and will be able to benefit from high voltage chargers as they roll out. There are also cars that can't charge at 350kW, but still take a 350kW charger. Charging a 100kW car in the 350kW bay is fine, but these owners should be given some reason to prefer a 100kW or 150kW charger if it's available. I like the idea of using someone being queued for the charger to trigger an infrastructure charge if you are underutilizing the charger, just like we already do if you are simply parked there and not charging. At the very least, require that drivers at least try to use the charger that best matches their car if it's available. Require that they plug in, or that they document a non-EV in the space before connecting to an over-spec charger.
    - linotype 2y ago
      How about no. I’m not going to fill out a form to charge my car. I use the 150 kW chargers when available, 350 kW when not. I rarely DC fast charge anyway. Edit: yeah feel free to downvote me. I believe in not just the rich being able to fast charge without issue.
      - gruez 2y ago
        >I believe in not just the rich being able to fast charge without issue. What about the competing interest of making charging fast and convenient, which surely would drive EV adoption? Is slowing the energy transition a worthwhile cost in the pursuit of equity?
        linotype 2y ago
        Most EVs now can charge at over 100 kW peak, and that means most EVs will be able to in five years. I don’t see how it’s that big of a deal to allow people with older, used EVs to charge at all stations. Even charging companies have this stance.
        avidiax 2y ago
- teachmetolearn 2y ago
  Definitely agree with this, last time I was at the EA charger I thought it was comical seeing Rivans and Audis waiting for an IKEA truck (ford van) that was creeping up from 95%. While these measures will help, the reality is that EA did not invest in enough chargers per location.
Temporary_31337 2y ago
Re Tesla superchargers - because Tesla is currently valued as a tech company at multiples of PE. Chargers are utility companies and command very low margins high upfront costs and high maintenance so are usually priced pretty low. In many instances utility companies that are private don’t even make profits and have to be rescued by the government and taxpayers in the long run so yeah that’s why.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  Also here probably foresees being forced to open up the Tesla charger network (maybe that's always happening?) so why bother to invest?
- teachmetolearn 2y ago
  I hear you, but gas stations make money, right? Can't Tesla adopt the same model and lease parcels of Supercharger land to convenience stores? If you are correct that they are a utility and should be priced low, then Superchargers would be detrimental to Tesla's stock price and should be spun out as a separate utility company with lower margins. This would create a better EV experience, thus furthering Tesla's goal.
mysterydip 2y ago
> as these programs expire (usually 2 or 3 years max after purchase of the vehicle) it will get better. Won't next year's batch of new EV owners be doing the same thing? Or have companies stopped offering the incentive?
- teachmetolearn 2y ago
  Yeah your right, I thought car manufacturers would slow this down considering how expensive this has to be for them but here is a link showing all the offers available today if you buy a new EV https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/evs-with-free-charging.html https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/evs-with-free-charging.html This is really annoying and should stop

jeffreportmill1 2y ago

This article paints a false image of EV life. We have owned a couple EVs for 6 years now and have only had to charge at charging station a few dozen times and never had to wait. I’m sure we spend dramatically less time refueling overall, since we refuel at home, overnight, once or twice a week. Actually, we did have to wait once for charging in the middle of Oklahoma (at the time a bit of a charging desert). It was at a casino, and a fellow Tesla owner had shot the place up with an assault rifle. It took almost 2 hours for the crime scene techs to collect bullet casings and clear the chargers (no one was hurt - the shooter was on LSD and defending the rest of us from space aliens). Law enforcement offered the shooter a ride - so he didn’t even need the charge.

tredre3 2y ago
> This article paints a false image of EV life. Do you genuinely believe that everybody owns a house and/or have a dedicated parking spot with an accessible charger?
- closeparen 2y ago
  I know about 7 EV owners. All have single family homes and garages; none have home charging.
  - linotype 2y ago
    Have you talked to them about it? All in it is usually under $1k to get one installed and would be cheaper in the long run and better on the battery.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I have primarily supercharged my 2018 Model S (100kw) over ~140k miles and only have 8% battery degradation.
      - Nextgrid 2y ago

yieldcrv 2y ago

I don't think the proposed measures really help Myself and many others walk away from their vehicles while charging Finding out that my car stopped charging for some reason doesn't make me rush back to a charging station because 9 out of 10 times that reason is that the station broke for me and anyone else that would show up. So there is no reason to move my car.

tredre3 2y ago
The only solution would be for stations to charge a base fee for every minute spent on a charger (excluding malfunctions). But I suspect many EV drivers would be against such measure.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  Some stations do charge an idle fee.

teeray 2y ago

> I was waiting behind people with batteries that were 92%, 94% and even 97% full, as I could see on the charger screens. Still, they stayed there. I made my own situation worse by giving up on one location and going to another with more chargers, but there were even more EVs waiting there. It sounds like marginal charging past 80% is too cheap per percentage point. If you want to encourage throughput, you have to make it expensive to be a "hog" in TFA's parlance.

rlpb 2y ago

For my 2015 Leaf, 80% means about 15 kWh. Sometimes I need more than that to get home, or even to the next charger. Percentage charge is not the best measure here. I appreciate that charge rates slow down after around 80% regardless of capacity, but sometimes I have no choice but to continue charging to 90%. That extra 10% is significant for me!

nullc 2y ago
FWIW, it's now possible to retrofit later model year batteries to older Leafs, giving you a replacement path which is much cheaper than the factory solution and will substantially expand your capacity-- something to keep in mind as you tire of fighting with the diminishing range. :)
- rlpb 2y ago
  Indeed, although our fear is that something unrelated will fail, so it's a bit of a risk on the capital expenditure.