12 ms·

9-Year-Old Who Changed School Lunches Silenced By Politicians

341 points by bcl 14y ago

unimpressive 14y ago
If I were in her shoes, they wouldn't have heard the last of me by a longshot. I'd start pulling out hidden cameras, and when they caught on to that I'd show my lunch around to everyone in the school during lunch...one of whom has a hidden camera and will photograph the lunch. Once they start taking disciplinary action is when I get others to start blogs and post pictures. If for no other reason than because I'd have a damn good time doing it.
- Alterlife 14y ago
  I think she's doing the right thing. So is her dad. In the long term, for them, a relationship with the school is important. All they need to do is play good citizens while the Strisand effect takes care of the rest.
  - unimpressive 14y ago
    > So is her dad. In the long term, for them, a relationship with the school is important. Definitely an aspect I didn't think about. > All they need to do is play good citizens while the Strisand effect takes care of the rest. Oh yes, regardless of any action on their part the council has really dug into the dung pile now. I really like the suggestion in the comments on her blog for her to start posting pictures other kids send in. But for now it's probably best to leave the "Shut down by censorship" bulletin up, boosts the Strisand effect.
    - slowpoke 14y ago
      I hate to be that guy but it's Streisand, not Strisand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
      - unimpressive 14y ago
        I thought that spelling looked weird. I honestly just copied the one from the post above.
- ars 14y ago
  If she did that she would win the battle but loose the war. She would get her photos, sure, but she would also get in trouble with her school, and now they would have an actual reason to shut her down. By listening to them she is denying them the moral high ground.
- runn1ng 14y ago
  She is nine. Just saying.
  - unimpressive 14y ago
    Keeping in the spirit of the parent: I guess it's story time. When I was nine, (Pretty sure it was nine, I may have been younger.) I went to a special school. (To give you an idea of the environment, imagine a one room school with a solitary space barred by magnetic lock in the back.) And I took the bus there and back. One day while I was walking out from school to the bus, I noticed something yellow and shiny on the ground; a golden bracelet. Stepped on, worn, and mostly scrap, but a golden bracelet nonetheless. In my childhood naiveté I shouted "Hey everyone! I found a golden bracelet!". The entire mob of fleeing kids turned around to look at me, and then just as quickly as they'd noticed, melted back into their rush to the buses. When I got home the lead instructor called to ask for the bracelet because "A couple had lost it.". This smelled like bull because as I mentioned, it was mostly scrap by this point. Probably $5 of scrap gold. So my parents ask if I'm going to give it to her: My answer was not a chance in hell. So I went in the next day and she pulled me aside to ask for the bracelet. She asks "Where's the bracelet?". I smile and inform her that "She's not getting it.". When she asks the inevitable "why?" my enthusiasm is boiling over with excitement. I matter-of-fact-ly tell her the truth: "I don't give things to rip off artists." And into the solitary room I went. (I think, my memories fuzzy after that part.) (If you ask me about it now, theres reasons why that was really really cool, and just as many if not more why that was really really not cool.) What I wrote above is probably the mild version of what 9 year old me would have done if he got his hands on the cameras. EDIT: I am aware that most nine year olds are probably nothing like this. (I actually wouldn't know, I rarely got to see normal nine year olds.)
spoiledtechie 14y ago
Legally, isn't school property, public property? That means, that she is therefore allowed to take pictures in public places, right?
- zem 14y ago
  the good old school-as-prison model wins again. most countries hold that you give up a bunch of rights when you're in school.
  - jff 14y ago
    Children in general are not given as many rights as adults--they lack the right to vote, to bear arms, etc. It's not just schools, and it's not necessarily wrong.
    - zem 14y ago
      yes, it's not necessarily wrong, but it tends to end up that way unless you are careful to justify things on a case-by-case basis. it's all to easy to end up at "no, you cannot do this, because we say so and we have been given carte blanche to infringe on your rights".
- jakejake 14y ago
  I don't know the exact laws but I know that certain property is "publicly owned," but not "public property" available to the general public. Government buildings, schools, airports, parks, etc have different rules.
- adrusi 14y ago
  I don't know about the UK, but schools in the US make up one of the three categories of places where you relinquish some fundamental rights, the other two being prisons and military bases. For example, my high school in Maryland officially forbids ALL ELECTRONICS. In practice this generally only refers to cell phones and iPods, I can usually pull out a laptop and the faculty doesn't care, but they can also apply that rule whenever it makes their jobs easier. For example, I started recording classes to enhance my notes, and the school told me I must cease doing so, originally because they claimed it was an invasion of the teachers' privacy (!), then later that it was an invasion of students' privacy; but when I argued that the state law against recording people without their consent only applied to private conversations, and that no conversation could be considered private in a public place such as a school, they responded by simply saying that I can't record because it involve the use of an electronic device.
DanBC 14y ago
Argyll and Bute council have a website. It appears to be down at the moment. (http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/ http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/) I wanted to know how many CCTV cameras they have. We in the UK are a heavily monitored population (here's a frustratingly thin article with a few details, hinting at a rich data set that is not made available. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8159141.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8159141.stm) ) It's bizarre that her tax money (as a child she doesn't pay much, but she will pay VAT on a few items and her parents certainly pay taxes) is used to provide state surveillance and to prevent her photographic record of her dinners. There are many reasons to prevent children taking phones and cameras to school. This reason is a really really stupid reason. How wrong-headed it is to take active measures against a child who is showing an interest in writing; civics; nutrition; and so on. EDIT: The father has appeared on BBC Radio 4's "Today" news programme. (about 7:20 for anyone 'listening again'.) He has said that the school has been very supportive, and that the decision was taken by the council. He sounds pretty balanced about it. We crush the joy of learning out of children.
- mjwalshe 14y ago
  well god forbid that uppity cleaver kids might enjoy school it might impact our plan to game the ofstead inspection so that we get the duffers who are on course for a D up to a C
- adrusi 14y ago
  As a student, I can see the reasons to forbid phones in school (though I believe the advantages outweigh these), but what reasons are you citing in support of camera prohibition?I highly doubt that cameras could pose much of a distraction from classes, and they can't really be used for anything that might be harmful to other students or the school, except by producing hard evidence of something like these lunches, which should be encouraged.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    Well, I guess there's a risk of theft. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7036880.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7036880.stm) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4907638.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4907638.stm) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4331528/Children-fall-victim-to-gun-crime-and-phone-theft.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4331528...)
jack-r-abbit 14y ago
I understand that having pictures of the food is probably going to get the point across even more, but I don't understand why she didn't just continue to blog about the horrible lunches and put a sketch or something. Imagine if she has just kept on blogging without the pictures like nothing ever happened. That would have sent a pretty powerful message to those people that tried to shut her up.
- polemic 14y ago
  Thing is, they weren't horrible. By and large, they were pretty good. That's the strange thing - the council really didn't have much to hide here.
  - DanBC 14y ago
    Yes. She even says they're good. I googled the Hindi for fantastic so I can say my chicken curry was शानदार (śānadāra)!
    - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
      true. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. And that was also a couple weeks after she started getting media attention. She generally was less pleased with other aspects of the lunches besides just taste. Even if the chicken curry was de-lish... it is freakin tiny. And that single broccoli stock... wow.
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    Looking back at some of the early stuff they don't look that good to me. Maybe horrible was too strong of a word... but those were some pretty sad school lunches. We pack lunches but if my kid was getting served that at school I'd be a little concerned too. But if the council didn't have anything to hide then why did they try to hide it? ;)
rsanchez1 14y ago
Seems that the politicians didn't want people telling them how to do their job, especially if it's a 9-year old doing it.
urbanjunkie 14y ago
It almost certainly wasn't 'politicians' - just overzealous local council officers. And instead of using a poor secondary source, why not link to Veg's blog post - http://neverseconds.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/goodbye.html http://neverseconds.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/goodbye.html?
- CrazedGeek 14y ago
  The Wired article adds quite a bit of context that the post itself is missing.
jakejake 14y ago
The wired article makes it sound like the girl was a political activist trying to force a change in the school lunch program. But if you read her blog, the photos of lunches look pretty good and her "reviews" are mostly positive. It almost struck me that people with agendas are projecting onto this girl's blog, which doesn't seem to be intended to be controversial at all, rather just a chronicle of her lunches - including how many mouthfuls of food each meal contains as well as the color of the wristband needed to get your lunch that particular day! I don't know why the school shut her down, it certainly was not a negative reflection on their lunch program at all. This did make me remember my school lunch days - basically tv dinners served in aluminum foil tins. I would have loved to have these lunches instead of the crap we had to eat! Here's one of her typical reviews "Today's Shepherd's Pie was really nice. The mash on top was really creamy and the mince was in lovely gravy. I wonder where their meat comes from. The salad was lovely and crunchy. The cake looked really difficult to serve because the icing was so sticky. I saved my melon until last and it was a great way to end my lunch. Food-o-meter - 9/10, Mouthfuls - 32"
- leeb 14y ago
  Initially, she did start her blog to change the program - and it worked! The school started allowing students to come back for seconds of veggies and sides. (You can read more about it in the original article, which was posted to HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4009404 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4009404)
  - jakejake 14y ago
    I went through her blog from the beginning posts hoping to see the meals change from terrible to awesome. I didn't really see a dramatic change - the quality seemed consistent (which is to say, pretty good quality to my eyes) Her very first post has a somewhat sad looking cheeseburger, but that was the only bad one I saw.
- DanBC 14y ago
  > I don't know why the school shut her down The school were supportive of her. The decision was taken by the local council after a headline appeared in a newspaper. Local councils are baffling to people living in the UK. Here's a wikipedia article about Scotland's local councils. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Scotland)
Evgeny 14y ago
Maybe she could draw lunches ... then take photos of drawings and post them. There would be a short caption under each photo, saying that the actual photos are not available due to the council policy. Win-win: keep on doing what you love and learn to draw!
- SagelyGuru 14y ago
  Following the same legal reasoning, i.e. any rules go on a private property, this council can, and probably will, forbid her to draw at school.
  - slowpoke 14y ago
    That would be even more ridiculous than forbidding her to photograph things and would probably increase the public outrage by at least two orders of magnitude.
ChuckMcM 14y ago
This will not end well for the council.
SagelyGuru 14y ago
Everyone seems to assume that the local council actually have the right to forbid a child taking photographs of her own property (in this case her lunch that she has just bought). Is that really so? Even if the school should have some capability to issue its own strange rules and by-laws, contrary to the common law applying outside, should this not be up to the Governors Board? We all far too readily acquiesce, at our own cost, to arbitrary orders by 'authorities', assuming that they have powers over our lives which often they don't have or should not have.
- radiowave 14y ago
  If the building she's in is their property, then they very likely do have that right. (I'm not condoning their decision, of course.)
  - SagelyGuru 14y ago
    > If the building she's in is their property .... You may well be right. Still, I find the concept questionable. I mean forbidding the lawful use of her property (camera, lunch), just because she is inside someone else's property? She is not photographing the school. Besides, council property does not belong to the council officials but to the residents in the area and I suspect that, if their rights and opinions were respected, this order would not have been issued.
    - edd 14y ago
      From wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law]: "In general under the law of the United Kingdom one cannot prevent photography of private property from a public place, and in general the right to take photographs on private land upon which permission has been obtained is similarly unrestricted. However landowners are permitted to impose any conditions they wish upon entry to a property, such as forbidding or restricting photography." I think the council would argue that they are enforcing the ban of photography to protect the children from people who might want photographs of the children. I know when I used to work with children we had to get written consents from parents before any child could apear in a photo and in some cases we were instructed to make sure some children were never photographed and step in the way if we saw anyone with a camera.
josscrowcroft 14y ago
What would happen if she just carried on doing it?
scotty79 14y ago
There should be some law that should state that if you can be at some place you can have a camera and take photos from that place of whatever you like and no one should be able to forbid you that or require a fee.
- scotty79 14y ago
  Care to comment on the downvote?
- pbhjpbhj 14y ago
  So you want to let people photograph in changing rooms and restrooms? I suspect you've not thought this through.
  - scotty79 14y ago
    If they can see me they can take my picture. It should be legal. Impolite perhaps but legal. If there's situation where I don't want to have my picture taken that's exactly the same situation where I don't want to be seen by anyone.
    - planetguy 14y ago
      Well, that's an interesting perspective. But I don't think it's either desirable in itself or necessary for consistency with any higher principle, so I disagree.
    - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
      So to you theres no difference between being fleetingly seen naked whilst changing (eg at a swimming pool) and having your nude self featured in mass media? Would you at least concede that this wouldnt be true for everyone? Or are you trying to make some sort of impractical distinction between capture and use of an image. FWIW I'm personally happy to embrace nudism but feel forcing the possibility of widespread exposure on others is going way to far.
      - 14y ago
AndrewDucker 14y ago
There's an interesting analysis here of the local council and the problems they've had with social networks before: http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/school-dinners-spygate/ http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/school-dinners-...
Porter_423 14y ago
A pediatrician is a doctor for kids you moron!!! And quite frankly, if you're worried about possibly having a kid in school pictured with a school dinner because a paedophile might get off on it, I can only imagine that you must be absolute panic over all the advertisements for family holidays in Butlins and such.... I know, to allay your fears, perhaps we should keep all children locked up in darkened rooms and let nobody see them until they reach the age of 18, that should keep them safe I guess (unless of course the parents decide to abuse them, oopps) The fact is, paedophiles are the problem, and photos of kids are not the cause of their paedophilia, they're just very sick people, and whether there are photos on the web or not won't change them or what they do
urbanjunkie 14y ago
And the response from Argyll and Bute http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school-meals-argyll-and-bute-council http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school... Argyll and Bute Council wholly refutes the unwarranted attacks on its schools catering service which culminated in national press headlines which have led catering staff to fear for their jobs. The Council has directly avoided any criticism of anyone involved in the ‘never seconds’ blog for obvious reasons despite a strongly held view that the information presented in it misrepresented the options and choices available to pupils however this escalation means we had to act to protect staff from the distress and harm it was causing. In particular, the photographic images uploaded appear to only represent a fraction of the choices available to pupils, so a decision has been made by the council to stop photos being taken in the school canteen. There have been discussions between senior council staff and Martha’s father however, despite an acknowledgement that the media coverage has produced these unwarranted attacks, he intimated that he would continue with the blog. The council has had no complaints for the last two years about the quality of school meals other than one from the Payne family received on 6 June and there have been no changes to the service on offer since the introduction of the blog. Pupils have a daily choice of two meals from a menu which is designed with pupils, parents and teachers. Our summer menu is about to be launched and includes main course choices like meat or vegetarian lasagne served with carrots and garlic bread or chicken pie with puff pastry, mashed potato and mixed vegetables. Pupils can choose from at least two meals every day. They pay £2 for two courses and this could be a starter and a main or a main and a desert. Each meal comes with milk or water. Pupils can have as much salad and bread as they want. Salad, vegetables, fruit, yoghurt and cheese options are available every day. These are standing options and are not a result of any changes in response to the blog site. As part of the curriculum for excellence, pupils in all our schools are regularly taught about healthy eating and at lunch breaks staff encourage pupils to make good choices from what is on offer. We use a system called ‘Nutmeg’ to make sure everything is nutritionally balanced. Our staff also get nutrition awareness training so they know how to provide a good healthy meal. There is portion sized guidance which we adhere to and it is matched to the age of the child so they get the right amount of food. Second portions would mean too many calories for pupils. In Lochgilphead Primary School we are piloting a new pre-ordering scheme which is designed to encourage class discussion around meal choices and also improves the accuracy of meal choices. The pupils use a touch screen to select their lunch option and the data is downloaded in the kitchen so they know how many portions of each meal are required. As they place their order, the pupils are given a coloured band which relates to their meal choice that day. They wear it during the morning, and at lunchtime they hand it to the catering assistant, who will give them the corresponding meal. The council’s focus is now on supporting the school in the education of young people in Argyll and Bute
noonespecial 14y ago
Perhaps they think it will be difficult to "raise" the chocolate ration to 20 grams per week if the kids are taking pictures of it every day?
hastur 14y ago
Martha Payne for Prime Minister!
anons2011 14y ago
NeverSeconds blogger Martha Payne school dinner photo ban overturned Looks like the ban has been overturned. A victory for free speech and common sense!
Tyrannosaurs 14y ago
Argyll and Bute Council have reversed their decision. http://audioboo.fm/boos/847428-argyll-and-bute-council-reverse-neverseconds-camera-ban#TWEET160064 http://audioboo.fm/boos/847428-argyll-and-bute-council-rever... (Around 1:30) Also in good news, her charity appeal has gone from just under £3,000 this morning to over £20,000 (against a target of £7,000).
uptown 14y ago
Update: "A council has overturned a ban which prevented British schoolgirl Martha Payne from posting pictures of her school dinners on her blog Neverseconds." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9333975/Victory-for-Martha-Payne-as-Argyll-and-Bute-council-backs-down-on-school-dinner-blog-ban.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9333975/V...
frederico 14y ago
Unbanned? Latest statement from the school. http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school-meals-argyll-and-bute-council?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ArgyllAndButeCouncilNewsFeed+%28Argyll+and+Bute+Council+News+Feed%29 http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school... Statement on school meals from Argyll and Bute Council Published Date: 15 Jun 2012 - 10:53 Updated: 14:19 - 15 June 2012 Statement from Cllr Roddy McCuish, Leader of Argyll and Bute Council "There is no place for censorship in this Council and never will be whilst I am leader. I have advised senior officers that this Administration intends to clarify the Council's policy position in regard to taking photos in schools. I have therefore requested senior officials to consider immediately withdrawing the ban on pictures from the school dining hall until a report can be considered by Elected Members. This will allow the continuation of the "Neverseconds" blog written by an enterprising and imaginative pupil, Martha Payne which has also raised lots of money for charity. But we all must also accept that there is absolutely no place for the type of inaccurate and abusive attack on our catering and dining hall staff, such as we saw in one newspaper yesterday which considerably inflamed the situation. That, of course, was not the fault of the blog, but of the paper. We need to find a united way forward so I am going to bring together our catering staff, the pupils, councillors and council officials - to ensure that the council continues to provide healthy, nutrious and attractive school meals. That "School Meals Summit" will take place later this summer. I will also meet Martha and her father as soon as I can, along with our lead councillor on Education, Michael Breslin to seek her continued engagement, along with lots of other pupils, in helping the council to get this issue right. By so doing Martha Payne and her friends will have had a strong and lasting influence not just on school meals, but on the whole of Argyll & Bute."
- smithbits 14y ago
  Seems like the obvious PR thing for Roddy McCuish to do is go and have his meeting with Martha and her father at the school, for lunch.
smoyer 14y ago
Martha wins! Follow the same link above and you'll see there are updates to Wired's original article. Thank you Argyll and Bute Council ... and you've shown the kids that it's okay to admit you were wrong and to take action to rectify what you've done.
politician 14y ago
Honestly, this was the sort of response I was expecting the first time that this story was posted -- not the Cinderella story of a positive change within two weeks. I guess the bureaucracy over there took a while to boot..
horsehead 14y ago
So much for that whole "you can do anything you set your mind to" bullshit they spout in most public schools (I'm assuming Scotland is the same way as in the US). Funny how the powerholders are all talk until somebody puts their money where their mouth is (no pun intended). Here's to you, assholes in charge.
smoyer 14y ago
"Veritas Ex Gustu" ... but who knows Latin? I love her light-heartedness and wish I still had mine. And does anyone else think of Charles Dickens' "Oliver Twist" when reading the title of her blog ("Never Seconds")? I keep hearing "Please sir, I want some more" in my head. I'm certainly glad to have kids like this in the world ... she's made more of a difference already than most of us will in our life-times. She's just passed the 35,000 pound mark for donations to Mary's Meals, feeding 3500 children for a year. Wow!
- reginaldo 14y ago
  I'm certainly glad to have kids like this, but I'm also glad to have parents like hers. I know many parents who would, as long as it started getting some attention, told their kids to "stop looking for trouble". There's a lot of bad parenting going on in the world, and her dad looks like a pretty balanced person.
charlieok 14y ago
Why doesn't the school just start its own meal photo blog. That would actually be a great way to publish the daily menu. Photos instead of just text. If they think the girl is deliberately presenting unappealing selections, they should present some more appealing ones as a counterpoint.
- charlieok 14y ago
  oh wait, apparently it was more about the local government the school answers to than the school itself. Maybe that (mostly) answers my question.
Groxx 14y ago
Honestly, that food looks quite a bit better than my school offered. There are some nutritionally-very-questionable combinations occasionally, but by and large they seem among the more reasonable options I tend to see. Which, yes, is terrifying. More focus on the crap we feed our kids is fantastic.

341 points by bcl 14y ago

If I were in her shoes, they wouldn't have heard the last of me by a longshot. I'd start pulling out hidden cameras, and when they caught on to that I'd show my lunch around to everyone in the school during lunch...one of whom has a hidden camera and will photograph the lunch. Once they start taking disciplinary action is when I get others to start blogs and post pictures. If for no other reason than because I'd have a damn good time doing it.

Alterlife 14y ago
I think she's doing the right thing. So is her dad. In the long term, for them, a relationship with the school is important. All they need to do is play good citizens while the Strisand effect takes care of the rest.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  > So is her dad. In the long term, for them, a relationship with the school is important. Definitely an aspect I didn't think about. > All they need to do is play good citizens while the Strisand effect takes care of the rest. Oh yes, regardless of any action on their part the council has really dug into the dung pile now. I really like the suggestion in the comments on her blog for her to start posting pictures other kids send in. But for now it's probably best to leave the "Shut down by censorship" bulletin up, boosts the Strisand effect.
  - slowpoke 14y ago
    I hate to be that guy but it's Streisand, not Strisand. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect
    - unimpressive 14y ago
      I thought that spelling looked weird. I honestly just copied the one from the post above.
ars 14y ago
If she did that she would win the battle but loose the war. She would get her photos, sure, but she would also get in trouble with her school, and now they would have an actual reason to shut her down. By listening to them she is denying them the moral high ground.
runn1ng 14y ago
She is nine. Just saying.
- unimpressive 14y ago
  Keeping in the spirit of the parent: I guess it's story time. When I was nine, (Pretty sure it was nine, I may have been younger.) I went to a special school. (To give you an idea of the environment, imagine a one room school with a solitary space barred by magnetic lock in the back.) And I took the bus there and back. One day while I was walking out from school to the bus, I noticed something yellow and shiny on the ground; a golden bracelet. Stepped on, worn, and mostly scrap, but a golden bracelet nonetheless. In my childhood naiveté I shouted "Hey everyone! I found a golden bracelet!". The entire mob of fleeing kids turned around to look at me, and then just as quickly as they'd noticed, melted back into their rush to the buses. When I got home the lead instructor called to ask for the bracelet because "A couple had lost it.". This smelled like bull because as I mentioned, it was mostly scrap by this point. Probably $5 of scrap gold. So my parents ask if I'm going to give it to her: My answer was not a chance in hell. So I went in the next day and she pulled me aside to ask for the bracelet. She asks "Where's the bracelet?". I smile and inform her that "She's not getting it.". When she asks the inevitable "why?" my enthusiasm is boiling over with excitement. I matter-of-fact-ly tell her the truth: "I don't give things to rip off artists." And into the solitary room I went. (I think, my memories fuzzy after that part.) (If you ask me about it now, theres reasons why that was really really cool, and just as many if not more why that was really really not cool.) What I wrote above is probably the mild version of what 9 year old me would have done if he got his hands on the cameras. EDIT: I am aware that most nine year olds are probably nothing like this. (I actually wouldn't know, I rarely got to see normal nine year olds.)

spoiledtechie 14y ago

Legally, isn't school property, public property? That means, that she is therefore allowed to take pictures in public places, right?

zem 14y ago
the good old school-as-prison model wins again. most countries hold that you give up a bunch of rights when you're in school.
- jff 14y ago
  Children in general are not given as many rights as adults--they lack the right to vote, to bear arms, etc. It's not just schools, and it's not necessarily wrong.
  - zem 14y ago
    yes, it's not necessarily wrong, but it tends to end up that way unless you are careful to justify things on a case-by-case basis. it's all to easy to end up at "no, you cannot do this, because we say so and we have been given carte blanche to infringe on your rights".
jakejake 14y ago
I don't know the exact laws but I know that certain property is "publicly owned," but not "public property" available to the general public. Government buildings, schools, airports, parks, etc have different rules.
adrusi 14y ago
I don't know about the UK, but schools in the US make up one of the three categories of places where you relinquish some fundamental rights, the other two being prisons and military bases. For example, my high school in Maryland officially forbids ALL ELECTRONICS. In practice this generally only refers to cell phones and iPods, I can usually pull out a laptop and the faculty doesn't care, but they can also apply that rule whenever it makes their jobs easier. For example, I started recording classes to enhance my notes, and the school told me I must cease doing so, originally because they claimed it was an invasion of the teachers' privacy (!), then later that it was an invasion of students' privacy; but when I argued that the state law against recording people without their consent only applied to private conversations, and that no conversation could be considered private in a public place such as a school, they responded by simply saying that I can't record because it involve the use of an electronic device.

DanBC 14y ago

Argyll and Bute council have a website. It appears to be down at the moment. (http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/ http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/) I wanted to know how many CCTV cameras they have. We in the UK are a heavily monitored population (here's a frustratingly thin article with a few details, hinting at a rich data set that is not made available. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8159141.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8159141.stm) ) It's bizarre that her tax money (as a child she doesn't pay much, but she will pay VAT on a few items and her parents certainly pay taxes) is used to provide state surveillance and to prevent her photographic record of her dinners. There are many reasons to prevent children taking phones and cameras to school. This reason is a really really stupid reason. How wrong-headed it is to take active measures against a child who is showing an interest in writing; civics; nutrition; and so on. EDIT: The father has appeared on BBC Radio 4's "Today" news programme. (about 7:20 for anyone 'listening again'.) He has said that the school has been very supportive, and that the decision was taken by the council. He sounds pretty balanced about it. We crush the joy of learning out of children.

mjwalshe 14y ago
well god forbid that uppity cleaver kids might enjoy school it might impact our plan to game the ofstead inspection so that we get the duffers who are on course for a D up to a C
adrusi 14y ago
As a student, I can see the reasons to forbid phones in school (though I believe the advantages outweigh these), but what reasons are you citing in support of camera prohibition?I highly doubt that cameras could pose much of a distraction from classes, and they can't really be used for anything that might be harmful to other students or the school, except by producing hard evidence of something like these lunches, which should be encouraged.
- DanBC 14y ago
  Well, I guess there's a risk of theft. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7036880.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7036880.stm) (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4907638.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4907638.stm) (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4331528/Children-fall-victim-to-gun-crime-and-phone-theft.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4331528...)

jack-r-abbit 14y ago

I understand that having pictures of the food is probably going to get the point across even more, but I don't understand why she didn't just continue to blog about the horrible lunches and put a sketch or something. Imagine if she has just kept on blogging without the pictures like nothing ever happened. That would have sent a pretty powerful message to those people that tried to shut her up.

polemic 14y ago
Thing is, they weren't horrible. By and large, they were pretty good. That's the strange thing - the council really didn't have much to hide here.
- DanBC 14y ago
  Yes. She even says they're good. I googled the Hindi for fantastic so I can say my chicken curry was शानदार (śānadāra)!
  - jack-r-abbit 14y ago
    true. But even a broken clock is right twice a day. And that was also a couple weeks after she started getting media attention. She generally was less pleased with other aspects of the lunches besides just taste. Even if the chicken curry was de-lish... it is freakin tiny. And that single broccoli stock... wow.
- jack-r-abbit 14y ago
  Looking back at some of the early stuff they don't look that good to me. Maybe horrible was too strong of a word... but those were some pretty sad school lunches. We pack lunches but if my kid was getting served that at school I'd be a little concerned too. But if the council didn't have anything to hide then why did they try to hide it? ;)

rsanchez1 14y ago

Seems that the politicians didn't want people telling them how to do their job, especially if it's a 9-year old doing it.

urbanjunkie 14y ago

It almost certainly wasn't 'politicians' - just overzealous local council officers. And instead of using a poor secondary source, why not link to Veg's blog post - http://neverseconds.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/goodbye.html http://neverseconds.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/goodbye.html?

CrazedGeek 14y ago
The Wired article adds quite a bit of context that the post itself is missing.

jakejake 14y ago

The wired article makes it sound like the girl was a political activist trying to force a change in the school lunch program. But if you read her blog, the photos of lunches look pretty good and her "reviews" are mostly positive. It almost struck me that people with agendas are projecting onto this girl's blog, which doesn't seem to be intended to be controversial at all, rather just a chronicle of her lunches - including how many mouthfuls of food each meal contains as well as the color of the wristband needed to get your lunch that particular day! I don't know why the school shut her down, it certainly was not a negative reflection on their lunch program at all. This did make me remember my school lunch days - basically tv dinners served in aluminum foil tins. I would have loved to have these lunches instead of the crap we had to eat! Here's one of her typical reviews "Today's Shepherd's Pie was really nice. The mash on top was really creamy and the mince was in lovely gravy. I wonder where their meat comes from. The salad was lovely and crunchy. The cake looked really difficult to serve because the icing was so sticky. I saved my melon until last and it was a great way to end my lunch. Food-o-meter - 9/10, Mouthfuls - 32"

leeb 14y ago
Initially, she did start her blog to change the program - and it worked! The school started allowing students to come back for seconds of veggies and sides. (You can read more about it in the original article, which was posted to HN: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4009404 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4009404)
- jakejake 14y ago
  I went through her blog from the beginning posts hoping to see the meals change from terrible to awesome. I didn't really see a dramatic change - the quality seemed consistent (which is to say, pretty good quality to my eyes) Her very first post has a somewhat sad looking cheeseburger, but that was the only bad one I saw.
DanBC 14y ago
> I don't know why the school shut her down The school were supportive of her. The decision was taken by the local council after a headline appeared in a newspaper. Local councils are baffling to people living in the UK. Here's a wikipedia article about Scotland's local councils. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Scotland http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_government_in_Scotland)

Evgeny 14y ago

Maybe she could draw lunches ... then take photos of drawings and post them. There would be a short caption under each photo, saying that the actual photos are not available due to the council policy. Win-win: keep on doing what you love and learn to draw!

SagelyGuru 14y ago
Following the same legal reasoning, i.e. any rules go on a private property, this council can, and probably will, forbid her to draw at school.
- slowpoke 14y ago
  That would be even more ridiculous than forbidding her to photograph things and would probably increase the public outrage by at least two orders of magnitude.

ChuckMcM 14y ago

This will not end well for the council.

SagelyGuru 14y ago

Everyone seems to assume that the local council actually have the right to forbid a child taking photographs of her own property (in this case her lunch that she has just bought). Is that really so? Even if the school should have some capability to issue its own strange rules and by-laws, contrary to the common law applying outside, should this not be up to the Governors Board? We all far too readily acquiesce, at our own cost, to arbitrary orders by 'authorities', assuming that they have powers over our lives which often they don't have or should not have.

radiowave 14y ago
If the building she's in is their property, then they very likely do have that right. (I'm not condoning their decision, of course.)
- SagelyGuru 14y ago
  > If the building she's in is their property .... You may well be right. Still, I find the concept questionable. I mean forbidding the lawful use of her property (camera, lunch), just because she is inside someone else's property? She is not photographing the school. Besides, council property does not belong to the council officials but to the residents in the area and I suspect that, if their rights and opinions were respected, this order would not have been issued.
  - edd 14y ago
    From wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law]: "In general under the law of the United Kingdom one cannot prevent photography of private property from a public place, and in general the right to take photographs on private land upon which permission has been obtained is similarly unrestricted. However landowners are permitted to impose any conditions they wish upon entry to a property, such as forbidding or restricting photography." I think the council would argue that they are enforcing the ban of photography to protect the children from people who might want photographs of the children. I know when I used to work with children we had to get written consents from parents before any child could apear in a photo and in some cases we were instructed to make sure some children were never photographed and step in the way if we saw anyone with a camera.

josscrowcroft 14y ago

What would happen if she just carried on doing it?

scotty79 14y ago

There should be some law that should state that if you can be at some place you can have a camera and take photos from that place of whatever you like and no one should be able to forbid you that or require a fee.

scotty79 14y ago
Care to comment on the downvote?
pbhjpbhj 14y ago
So you want to let people photograph in changing rooms and restrooms? I suspect you've not thought this through.
- scotty79 14y ago
  If they can see me they can take my picture. It should be legal. Impolite perhaps but legal. If there's situation where I don't want to have my picture taken that's exactly the same situation where I don't want to be seen by anyone.
  - planetguy 14y ago
    Well, that's an interesting perspective. But I don't think it's either desirable in itself or necessary for consistency with any higher principle, so I disagree.
  - pbhjpbhj 14y ago
    So to you theres no difference between being fleetingly seen naked whilst changing (eg at a swimming pool) and having your nude self featured in mass media? Would you at least concede that this wouldnt be true for everyone? Or are you trying to make some sort of impractical distinction between capture and use of an image. FWIW I'm personally happy to embrace nudism but feel forcing the possibility of widespread exposure on others is going way to far.
    - 14y ago

AndrewDucker 14y ago

There's an interesting analysis here of the local council and the problems they've had with social networks before: http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/school-dinners-spygate/ http://edinburgheye.wordpress.com/2012/06/15/school-dinners-...

Porter_423 14y ago

A pediatrician is a doctor for kids you moron!!! And quite frankly, if you're worried about possibly having a kid in school pictured with a school dinner because a paedophile might get off on it, I can only imagine that you must be absolute panic over all the advertisements for family holidays in Butlins and such.... I know, to allay your fears, perhaps we should keep all children locked up in darkened rooms and let nobody see them until they reach the age of 18, that should keep them safe I guess (unless of course the parents decide to abuse them, oopps) The fact is, paedophiles are the problem, and photos of kids are not the cause of their paedophilia, they're just very sick people, and whether there are photos on the web or not won't change them or what they do

urbanjunkie 14y ago

And the response from Argyll and Bute http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school-meals-argyll-and-bute-council http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school... Argyll and Bute Council wholly refutes the unwarranted attacks on its schools catering service which culminated in national press headlines which have led catering staff to fear for their jobs. The Council has directly avoided any criticism of anyone involved in the ‘never seconds’ blog for obvious reasons despite a strongly held view that the information presented in it misrepresented the options and choices available to pupils however this escalation means we had to act to protect staff from the distress and harm it was causing. In particular, the photographic images uploaded appear to only represent a fraction of the choices available to pupils, so a decision has been made by the council to stop photos being taken in the school canteen. There have been discussions between senior council staff and Martha’s father however, despite an acknowledgement that the media coverage has produced these unwarranted attacks, he intimated that he would continue with the blog. The council has had no complaints for the last two years about the quality of school meals other than one from the Payne family received on 6 June and there have been no changes to the service on offer since the introduction of the blog. Pupils have a daily choice of two meals from a menu which is designed with pupils, parents and teachers. Our summer menu is about to be launched and includes main course choices like meat or vegetarian lasagne served with carrots and garlic bread or chicken pie with puff pastry, mashed potato and mixed vegetables. Pupils can choose from at least two meals every day. They pay £2 for two courses and this could be a starter and a main or a main and a desert. Each meal comes with milk or water. Pupils can have as much salad and bread as they want. Salad, vegetables, fruit, yoghurt and cheese options are available every day. These are standing options and are not a result of any changes in response to the blog site. As part of the curriculum for excellence, pupils in all our schools are regularly taught about healthy eating and at lunch breaks staff encourage pupils to make good choices from what is on offer. We use a system called ‘Nutmeg’ to make sure everything is nutritionally balanced. Our staff also get nutrition awareness training so they know how to provide a good healthy meal. There is portion sized guidance which we adhere to and it is matched to the age of the child so they get the right amount of food. Second portions would mean too many calories for pupils. In Lochgilphead Primary School we are piloting a new pre-ordering scheme which is designed to encourage class discussion around meal choices and also improves the accuracy of meal choices. The pupils use a touch screen to select their lunch option and the data is downloaded in the kitchen so they know how many portions of each meal are required. As they place their order, the pupils are given a coloured band which relates to their meal choice that day. They wear it during the morning, and at lunchtime they hand it to the catering assistant, who will give them the corresponding meal. The council’s focus is now on supporting the school in the education of young people in Argyll and Bute

noonespecial 14y ago

Perhaps they think it will be difficult to "raise" the chocolate ration to 20 grams per week if the kids are taking pictures of it every day?

hastur 14y ago

Martha Payne for Prime Minister!

anons2011 14y ago

NeverSeconds blogger Martha Payne school dinner photo ban overturned Looks like the ban has been overturned. A victory for free speech and common sense!

Tyrannosaurs 14y ago

Argyll and Bute Council have reversed their decision. http://audioboo.fm/boos/847428-argyll-and-bute-council-reverse-neverseconds-camera-ban#TWEET160064 http://audioboo.fm/boos/847428-argyll-and-bute-council-rever... (Around 1:30) Also in good news, her charity appeal has gone from just under £3,000 this morning to over £20,000 (against a target of £7,000).

uptown 14y ago

Update: "A council has overturned a ban which prevented British schoolgirl Martha Payne from posting pictures of her school dinners on her blog Neverseconds." http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9333975/Victory-for-Martha-Payne-as-Argyll-and-Bute-council-backs-down-on-school-dinner-blog-ban.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/9333975/V...

frederico 14y ago

Unbanned? Latest statement from the school. http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school-meals-argyll-and-bute-council?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ArgyllAndButeCouncilNewsFeed+%28Argyll+and+Bute+Council+News+Feed%29 http://www.argyll-bute.gov.uk/news/2012/jun/statement-school... Statement on school meals from Argyll and Bute Council Published Date: 15 Jun 2012 - 10:53 Updated: 14:19 - 15 June 2012 Statement from Cllr Roddy McCuish, Leader of Argyll and Bute Council "There is no place for censorship in this Council and never will be whilst I am leader. I have advised senior officers that this Administration intends to clarify the Council's policy position in regard to taking photos in schools. I have therefore requested senior officials to consider immediately withdrawing the ban on pictures from the school dining hall until a report can be considered by Elected Members. This will allow the continuation of the "Neverseconds" blog written by an enterprising and imaginative pupil, Martha Payne which has also raised lots of money for charity. But we all must also accept that there is absolutely no place for the type of inaccurate and abusive attack on our catering and dining hall staff, such as we saw in one newspaper yesterday which considerably inflamed the situation. That, of course, was not the fault of the blog, but of the paper. We need to find a united way forward so I am going to bring together our catering staff, the pupils, councillors and council officials - to ensure that the council continues to provide healthy, nutrious and attractive school meals. That "School Meals Summit" will take place later this summer. I will also meet Martha and her father as soon as I can, along with our lead councillor on Education, Michael Breslin to seek her continued engagement, along with lots of other pupils, in helping the council to get this issue right. By so doing Martha Payne and her friends will have had a strong and lasting influence not just on school meals, but on the whole of Argyll & Bute."

smithbits 14y ago
Seems like the obvious PR thing for Roddy McCuish to do is go and have his meeting with Martha and her father at the school, for lunch.

smoyer 14y ago

Martha wins! Follow the same link above and you'll see there are updates to Wired's original article. Thank you Argyll and Bute Council ... and you've shown the kids that it's okay to admit you were wrong and to take action to rectify what you've done.

politician 14y ago

Honestly, this was the sort of response I was expecting the first time that this story was posted -- not the Cinderella story of a positive change within two weeks. I guess the bureaucracy over there took a while to boot..

horsehead 14y ago

So much for that whole "you can do anything you set your mind to" bullshit they spout in most public schools (I'm assuming Scotland is the same way as in the US). Funny how the powerholders are all talk until somebody puts their money where their mouth is (no pun intended). Here's to you, assholes in charge.

smoyer 14y ago

"Veritas Ex Gustu" ... but who knows Latin? I love her light-heartedness and wish I still had mine. And does anyone else think of Charles Dickens' "Oliver Twist" when reading the title of her blog ("Never Seconds")? I keep hearing "Please sir, I want some more" in my head. I'm certainly glad to have kids like this in the world ... she's made more of a difference already than most of us will in our life-times. She's just passed the 35,000 pound mark for donations to Mary's Meals, feeding 3500 children for a year. Wow!

reginaldo 14y ago
I'm certainly glad to have kids like this, but I'm also glad to have parents like hers. I know many parents who would, as long as it started getting some attention, told their kids to "stop looking for trouble". There's a lot of bad parenting going on in the world, and her dad looks like a pretty balanced person.

charlieok 14y ago

Why doesn't the school just start its own meal photo blog. That would actually be a great way to publish the daily menu. Photos instead of just text. If they think the girl is deliberately presenting unappealing selections, they should present some more appealing ones as a counterpoint.

charlieok 14y ago
oh wait, apparently it was more about the local government the school answers to than the school itself. Maybe that (mostly) answers my question.

Groxx 14y ago

Honestly, that food looks quite a bit better than my school offered. There are some nutritionally-very-questionable combinations occasionally, but by and large they seem among the more reasonable options I tend to see. Which, yes, is terrifying. More focus on the crap we feed our kids is fantastic.