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> They reported actually seeing an apple, some vividly and some faintly, floating like a hologram in front of them. This is the line in the article that gets c

> They reported actually seeing an apple, some vividly and some faintly, floating like a hologram in front of them. This is the line in the article that gets confusing for me. Like, are some people actually seeing an actual image of an apple, as if they were wearing VR goggles or something?

lovethevoid 2y ago
Where you fall on the imagination spectrum depends on how clear the object you are asked to visualize is in your mind. For example if asked to visualize a green banana, and you can only see vague, unclear, faint outlines of a banana, that's hypophantasia. If you cannot see an image at all, it's aphantasia. Some might see vivid details of the banana, like the matte skin and subtle green gradient, they fall under hyperphantasia. Others who lack the details but are still clear considered phantasia. This also applies to all other senses, like being able to imagine a sound or smell.
- jncfhnb 2y ago
  But surely nobody sees the fruit rendered into their actual vision as if all mental imagery appears as a literal hallucination in their vision.
  - jaggederest 2y ago
    Visual hallucinations due to mental illness are uncommon but not unknown. I'd be reluctant to dismiss the idea that someone on earth can and does do that. I'm pretty far down the visualization direction myself.
  - CTDOCodebases 2y ago
    I've done a meditation where you sit open eyed and visualize something within the space. It was cool. Sort of like a hazy projection over the visual field. Normally when I visualize something with my minds eye it is on a black background. When the visualization ends my visual field snaps back to reality.
cynicalkane 2y ago
Yes. The imaginary apple doesn't seem fully comparable to a real apple unless I'm in a very focused and compelling daydream, and even then real but not real at the same time, if that makes sense. But even now if I was to conjure an image of a faint, ethereal apple in front of this computer screen, I can do it easily. The major difference is VR goggles are fully vivid, and remain so when I'm not willing them to be, and tangible in some sense I'm sure is indefinable with people to aphantasia. The VR goggles are real in the same way things that aren't dreams are real.
- listenallyall 2y ago
  Does the imaginary apple block you from seeing the comouter screen behind it? If you can honestly say it blocks your vision, like a real tangible apple, I'd give some credence to the idea (and also suggest that you not be permitted to drive, as it would be incredibly dangerous if simple thoughts could block you from seeing an actual car or stoplight in front of you).
  - interroboink 2y ago
    It's perhaps a little like holding your hand up in front of one of your eyes but not the other. It "blocks" your vision, but you can still see behind it. I don't personally have such a vivid visual imagination, but there are moments when it can feel like that — I won't know what I was physically looking at because I was so concentrated on a visual(-ish) mental image that obscured my awareness of the real world, to a degree.
    - listenallyall 2y ago
      > I won't know what I was physically looking at because I was so concentrated on a visual(-ish) mental image Like the guy above, you should not be allowed to drive a vehicle.
      - empiricus 2y ago
        Alternatively, if I am physically able to close my eyes during driving then I should not be allowed to drive?
vasco 2y ago
I thought everyone did. I mean I can just picture whatever I want. A big purple monster with 20 arms? Done. You want him running towards me or away? Now he is upside down. It's as natural as any other thought, to the point I'm sure others either just never taught themselves how to do it or they just interpret their thoughts in a different way from me, or are lying in order to be quirky and "not neurotypical" which is trendy. Another fun thing is imagining things but not fully. The brain will fill in the spots but not throw you all the info at once. For example I didn't really think of the monsters nose, but now that I did, it has a huge nose piercing like a cow ring. This is great for creation because instead of creating with your foreground brain, you can create for free with your background brain. I'm pretty sure every person can do this (barring <0.01% population health issues).
- bsenftner 2y ago
  I'm like this too, and if I want to consider variations I can instantly see rows and columns of whatever I'm considering with variances left, right, up, down, back and in. I use this extensively when I code too. I can see the lines of code, to the degree I can read them, and I've not found a limit to how much code I can have in my head and visualize at a reading level. I can do this with every single line of code from an animated ray tracer I wrote in C back in '85. Any code that I personally felt proud to have created, given about 5 minutes to recall the details, I can write the code out from memory. Beyond seeing the lines of code, I see functions and objects and data structures as geometric shapes, and their interactions vary between images of little machines, like airplanes, traveling between them to complex bridge structures like freeways with lot's of traffic. I'm also a lucid dreamer. I can tell when I'm dreaming with a test: if I say "apple" with my hand held on front of me, palms up and an apple appears which I can then grasp and hold, then I'm dreaming. I'll often wake at that moment, but when I don't I start taking advantage and fly like Neo. Often I'll fly into something, and the jolt wakes me. I wake laughing too.
- erpellan 2y ago
  You had me until the sweeping generalisation. I can picture things clearly but only deep inside my head. I never (awake) see anything in front of my eyes that isn’t physically there.

lovethevoid 2y ago

Where you fall on the imagination spectrum depends on how clear the object you are asked to visualize is in your mind. For example if asked to visualize a green banana, and you can only see vague, unclear, faint outlines of a banana, that's hypophantasia. If you cannot see an image at all, it's aphantasia. Some might see vivid details of the banana, like the matte skin and subtle green gradient, they fall under hyperphantasia. Others who lack the details but are still clear considered phantasia. This also applies to all other senses, like being able to imagine a sound or smell.

jncfhnb 2y ago
But surely nobody sees the fruit rendered into their actual vision as if all mental imagery appears as a literal hallucination in their vision.
- jaggederest 2y ago
  Visual hallucinations due to mental illness are uncommon but not unknown. I'd be reluctant to dismiss the idea that someone on earth can and does do that. I'm pretty far down the visualization direction myself.
- CTDOCodebases 2y ago
  I've done a meditation where you sit open eyed and visualize something within the space. It was cool. Sort of like a hazy projection over the visual field. Normally when I visualize something with my minds eye it is on a black background. When the visualization ends my visual field snaps back to reality.

cynicalkane 2y ago

Yes. The imaginary apple doesn't seem fully comparable to a real apple unless I'm in a very focused and compelling daydream, and even then real but not real at the same time, if that makes sense. But even now if I was to conjure an image of a faint, ethereal apple in front of this computer screen, I can do it easily. The major difference is VR goggles are fully vivid, and remain so when I'm not willing them to be, and tangible in some sense I'm sure is indefinable with people to aphantasia. The VR goggles are real in the same way things that aren't dreams are real.

listenallyall 2y ago
Does the imaginary apple block you from seeing the comouter screen behind it? If you can honestly say it blocks your vision, like a real tangible apple, I'd give some credence to the idea (and also suggest that you not be permitted to drive, as it would be incredibly dangerous if simple thoughts could block you from seeing an actual car or stoplight in front of you).
- interroboink 2y ago
  It's perhaps a little like holding your hand up in front of one of your eyes but not the other. It "blocks" your vision, but you can still see behind it. I don't personally have such a vivid visual imagination, but there are moments when it can feel like that — I won't know what I was physically looking at because I was so concentrated on a visual(-ish) mental image that obscured my awareness of the real world, to a degree.
  - listenallyall 2y ago
    > I won't know what I was physically looking at because I was so concentrated on a visual(-ish) mental image Like the guy above, you should not be allowed to drive a vehicle.
    - empiricus 2y ago
      Alternatively, if I am physically able to close my eyes during driving then I should not be allowed to drive?

vasco 2y ago

I thought everyone did. I mean I can just picture whatever I want. A big purple monster with 20 arms? Done. You want him running towards me or away? Now he is upside down. It's as natural as any other thought, to the point I'm sure others either just never taught themselves how to do it or they just interpret their thoughts in a different way from me, or are lying in order to be quirky and "not neurotypical" which is trendy. Another fun thing is imagining things but not fully. The brain will fill in the spots but not throw you all the info at once. For example I didn't really think of the monsters nose, but now that I did, it has a huge nose piercing like a cow ring. This is great for creation because instead of creating with your foreground brain, you can create for free with your background brain. I'm pretty sure every person can do this (barring <0.01% population health issues).

bsenftner 2y ago
I'm like this too, and if I want to consider variations I can instantly see rows and columns of whatever I'm considering with variances left, right, up, down, back and in. I use this extensively when I code too. I can see the lines of code, to the degree I can read them, and I've not found a limit to how much code I can have in my head and visualize at a reading level. I can do this with every single line of code from an animated ray tracer I wrote in C back in '85. Any code that I personally felt proud to have created, given about 5 minutes to recall the details, I can write the code out from memory. Beyond seeing the lines of code, I see functions and objects and data structures as geometric shapes, and their interactions vary between images of little machines, like airplanes, traveling between them to complex bridge structures like freeways with lot's of traffic. I'm also a lucid dreamer. I can tell when I'm dreaming with a test: if I say "apple" with my hand held on front of me, palms up and an apple appears which I can then grasp and hold, then I'm dreaming. I'll often wake at that moment, but when I don't I start taking advantage and fly like Neo. Often I'll fly into something, and the jolt wakes me. I wake laughing too.
erpellan 2y ago
You had me until the sweeping generalisation. I can picture things clearly but only deep inside my head. I never (awake) see anything in front of my eyes that isn’t physically there.