9 ms·

Why Western designs fail in developing countries [video]

47 points by Rinzler89 2y ago

andersco 2y ago
Very interesting topic but the “light beats” playing in the background made it hard to focus on what he is saying. I wish there were an option for turning off background music.
- pomtato 2y ago
  [flagged]
- geor9e 2y ago
  If you're okay with robot voice audiobook version you can grab the transcript and have it read aloud by your browser. I used Edge so it's "Read Aloud Selection" in right click. Not sure where it is in other browsers. https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=CGRtyxEpoGg https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=CGRtyxEpoGg Actually when I google "chrome store Voice isolation" there are extensions that purport to remove noise from video https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/noise-filter/jdopcomiamfaelhcealinfdkcooehcjk?hl=en-US https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/noise-filter/jdopco...
fvdessen 2y ago
I think western designs work actually very well in developing countries, such as south america and south east asia. Where they fail is in non-developing countries such as central africa, where the problems of war, crime, drugs, and corruption run so deep that technology is unable to solve any problem, just as giving a washing machine to a crack addict is not going to help him stay clean. A good example is digging a well in the village to get water. But why isn't there a well in the first place ? Because in most of the case they're getting their water via water trucks from a corrupt government agency who's quite interested in making sure no well ever works for long, and the locals don't have access to the financial, technological and judiciary infrastructure to make long term investments and commitments worthwile. In other words the problem of the village is not the lack of the 'well technology' in the skill tree.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Boils down to the sometimes brutal fact that social problems can't be solved with technological solutions.
  - trilbyglens 2y ago
    Our technophilia often blinds of from this, even in the US. Techno-optimism is basically a cult that says all our woes can be solved with engineering rather than social effort. Climate change, wealth inequality, etc will not be solved with technology. They will be solved with sweat effort and social change. To believe anything else is delusional.
    - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
      Yes. “I have a startup that’ll change the world with our SaaS product!” has really rotted peoples brains on this website.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        I've beendownvoted into oblivion on this website for arguing with crypto pundits who were preaching here how much Bitcoin will save the poorest countries from poverty.
      - ecshafer 2y ago
        I never liked the "Change the world" rhetoric. Give me "We think this is an untapped market, with a good chance to make a nice business out of".
      - silverquiet 2y ago
        I always felt that was more or less a religion sold to engineers in order to get them to work on whatever meaningless tech product du jour was used to extract money from some VC or other. Some would say I'm a miserable cynic though.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
baybal2 2y ago
[dead]
blueflow 2y ago
One of the YT commenters got it pretty well: Modern day philanthropy is primarily self-serving and ego-driven more than it is actual altruism. A bunch of very wealthy people, largely divorced from reality, seeking accolades and affirmations that they are good. Some may have their heart in the right place, but time and time again, the results show a disconnect, and that being in such a privileged position does not automatically qualify someone of "knowing what's best" or that their ideal "greater good" is, well, actually good.
- wrp 2y ago
  I'd like to have a catchy short-hand term for this phenomenon, so I can conveniently raise the point in conversation. Like "helicopter parenting", it's such a big factor in parts of society.
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Virtue signalling is a pretty close term.
    - card_zero 2y ago
      There's "savior complex", too.
      - Alias_Knagg 2y ago
        I always thought the sale of Indulgences by the catholic church was a good metaphor. How about "Eco-indulgences"?
  - Ylpertnodi 2y ago
    Isn't it 'humblebrag'?
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    Woke.
  - 2y ago
tivert 2y ago
> This is why it's so hard to design for cultures and contexts that you're not a part of. You don't even realize all the skewed perceptions you have about the objects surrounding you. That's something all technology people need to keep in mind all the time, even in their "home" culture, which many seem to totally fail at. You really need to respect people who are different than you, and not just in some politicized identity politics sense. IMHO, it seems very easy for technology people to create for themselves a weird subculture and lose sight of how things are outside that subculture, let alone something truly foreign like an undeveloped nation. I think we saw that a lot with cryptocurrency.
keiferski 2y ago
I am in no way an expert on developmental aid, but one thing that has always bothered me about (my impression of) it is how the overall technological "ecosystem" and historical processes seem to be entirely ignored. It's very much just, "here's this individual disconnected thing that is supposed to solve a problem" and not "our civilization has centuries of thought and development behind this thing, so here's how we got from there to here, and here are a few intermediary-but-now-outdated forms that illustrate progress." The approach is totally out of context and doesn't seem to be interested in setting up a sustainable tech ecosystem that can eventually support itself. It's just a one-off thing and it keeps the recipient dependent on the ecosystem where the single item came from. Again, I'm not an expert at all, but historically Japan "solved" this problem by bringing in tons of foreign experts and paying them for their knowledge and training, with the result that Japan became an industrial power in less than a century. I have never seen a similar approach taken in modern development. Singapore, maybe?
- xethos 2y ago
  To bolster their burgeoning watch-making indistry, the USSR imported a defunct American watch factory... and many of the employees. They were paid to stay for a set amount of time, were given the choice of staying indefinitely, and taught the Soviets how to make timepieces Today the Russian company Raketa is one of only five companies in the world that can make a watch start to finish, including the hairspring, a critical component in all mechanical timepieces
  - keiferski 2y ago
    Great example. I think I have an old Raketa myself...
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
aaron695 2y ago
[dead]
tim333 2y ago
A lot of western designs work very well in developing countries but they tend to be the same designs that work in developed countries too, if at the cheaper end of the market. Like when I was in Tanzania, communications had been transformed by cell phones and smartphones but the same ones you can buy in the west. More $100 Androids not iPhones. Also a lot of transport is in Toyotas the same you buy in the west (maybe with less lux specs) etc What doesn't work so well is making things for those other people that you wouldn't use yourself like the One Laptop per Child thing. I bet the people who made that wanted their own kids educated with good teachers, text books and writing, not with crappy laptops.
- Brian_K_White 2y ago
  They wanted their kids to have a computer of any sort, which they already did. They remembered how much they themselves got out of an XT or Apple II, and how a OLPC is 500x better than those. I got an XT when they were well obsolete and essentially free junk. Getting that thing on to BBS's with a modem that didn't even have mnp5 error correction and figuring out how to get anything out of it's other limitations set me up for life. olpc is if anything too good. It's all complete and buttoned up and there are no problems to solve. It's a useful tool to do a job not enough of them need doing. Python and spreadsheets are not going to feed those kids. I think the reason the XT did so much for me was, 1 I lived in an environment where IT skills are useful and valuable. 2 I had other better computers to aspire to. I couldn't afford a good machine, but I could see them all around so I knew what they could do that mine could not, but I could also see how mine almost could, how it actually had all the same important essence, and I could do a version of all the same things by trading some compromise and some effort and time in place of money. For instance I found a software solution for the modems lack of error correction, and managed to make BBSing functional. And using BBSs in place of Compuserv and Prodigy. It was very rewarding and fun to try to soup up that turd, because it was my turd, and it was infinitely soup-up-able with ISA slots and socketed cpu and empty FPU socket etc. It was exactly like working on a mini bike or a carr (back when cars were mechanical and could be worked on) olpc is like, here's a thing that's already complete, and it's already the best thing around. There is nothing to hack, and nothing to aspire to to make you want to even think to try. And what it's good for as a tool, is a thing no one around you needs you to do.

47 points by Rinzler89 2y ago

Very interesting topic but the “light beats” playing in the background made it hard to focus on what he is saying. I wish there were an option for turning off background music.

pomtato 2y ago
[flagged]
geor9e 2y ago
If you're okay with robot voice audiobook version you can grab the transcript and have it read aloud by your browser. I used Edge so it's "Read Aloud Selection" in right click. Not sure where it is in other browsers. https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=CGRtyxEpoGg https://youtubetranscript.com/?v=CGRtyxEpoGg Actually when I google "chrome store Voice isolation" there are extensions that purport to remove noise from video https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/noise-filter/jdopcomiamfaelhcealinfdkcooehcjk?hl=en-US https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/noise-filter/jdopco...

fvdessen 2y ago

I think western designs work actually very well in developing countries, such as south america and south east asia. Where they fail is in non-developing countries such as central africa, where the problems of war, crime, drugs, and corruption run so deep that technology is unable to solve any problem, just as giving a washing machine to a crack addict is not going to help him stay clean. A good example is digging a well in the village to get water. But why isn't there a well in the first place ? Because in most of the case they're getting their water via water trucks from a corrupt government agency who's quite interested in making sure no well ever works for long, and the locals don't have access to the financial, technological and judiciary infrastructure to make long term investments and commitments worthwile. In other words the problem of the village is not the lack of the 'well technology' in the skill tree.

Dalewyn 2y ago
Boils down to the sometimes brutal fact that social problems can't be solved with technological solutions.
- trilbyglens 2y ago
  Our technophilia often blinds of from this, even in the US. Techno-optimism is basically a cult that says all our woes can be solved with engineering rather than social effort. Climate change, wealth inequality, etc will not be solved with technology. They will be solved with sweat effort and social change. To believe anything else is delusional.
  - cqqxo4zV46cp 2y ago
    Yes. “I have a startup that’ll change the world with our SaaS product!” has really rotted peoples brains on this website.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      I've beendownvoted into oblivion on this website for arguing with crypto pundits who were preaching here how much Bitcoin will save the poorest countries from poverty.
    - ecshafer 2y ago
      I never liked the "Change the world" rhetoric. Give me "We think this is an untapped market, with a good chance to make a nice business out of".
    - silverquiet 2y ago
      I always felt that was more or less a religion sold to engineers in order to get them to work on whatever meaningless tech product du jour was used to extract money from some VC or other. Some would say I'm a miserable cynic though.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago

baybal2 2y ago

[dead]

blueflow 2y ago

One of the YT commenters got it pretty well: Modern day philanthropy is primarily self-serving and ego-driven more than it is actual altruism. A bunch of very wealthy people, largely divorced from reality, seeking accolades and affirmations that they are good. Some may have their heart in the right place, but time and time again, the results show a disconnect, and that being in such a privileged position does not automatically qualify someone of "knowing what's best" or that their ideal "greater good" is, well, actually good.

wrp 2y ago
I'd like to have a catchy short-hand term for this phenomenon, so I can conveniently raise the point in conversation. Like "helicopter parenting", it's such a big factor in parts of society.
- keiferski 2y ago
  Virtue signalling is a pretty close term.
  - card_zero 2y ago
    There's "savior complex", too.
    - Alias_Knagg 2y ago
      I always thought the sale of Indulgences by the catholic church was a good metaphor. How about "Eco-indulgences"?
- Ylpertnodi 2y ago
  Isn't it 'humblebrag'?
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  Woke.
- 2y ago

tivert 2y ago

> This is why it's so hard to design for cultures and contexts that you're not a part of. You don't even realize all the skewed perceptions you have about the objects surrounding you. That's something all technology people need to keep in mind all the time, even in their "home" culture, which many seem to totally fail at. You really need to respect people who are different than you, and not just in some politicized identity politics sense. IMHO, it seems very easy for technology people to create for themselves a weird subculture and lose sight of how things are outside that subculture, let alone something truly foreign like an undeveloped nation. I think we saw that a lot with cryptocurrency.

keiferski 2y ago

I am in no way an expert on developmental aid, but one thing that has always bothered me about (my impression of) it is how the overall technological "ecosystem" and historical processes seem to be entirely ignored. It's very much just, "here's this individual disconnected thing that is supposed to solve a problem" and not "our civilization has centuries of thought and development behind this thing, so here's how we got from there to here, and here are a few intermediary-but-now-outdated forms that illustrate progress." The approach is totally out of context and doesn't seem to be interested in setting up a sustainable tech ecosystem that can eventually support itself. It's just a one-off thing and it keeps the recipient dependent on the ecosystem where the single item came from. Again, I'm not an expert at all, but historically Japan "solved" this problem by bringing in tons of foreign experts and paying them for their knowledge and training, with the result that Japan became an industrial power in less than a century. I have never seen a similar approach taken in modern development. Singapore, maybe?

xethos 2y ago
To bolster their burgeoning watch-making indistry, the USSR imported a defunct American watch factory... and many of the employees. They were paid to stay for a set amount of time, were given the choice of staying indefinitely, and taught the Soviets how to make timepieces Today the Russian company Raketa is one of only five companies in the world that can make a watch start to finish, including the hairspring, a critical component in all mechanical timepieces
- keiferski 2y ago
  Great example. I think I have an old Raketa myself...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

aaron695 2y ago

[dead]

tim333 2y ago

A lot of western designs work very well in developing countries but they tend to be the same designs that work in developed countries too, if at the cheaper end of the market. Like when I was in Tanzania, communications had been transformed by cell phones and smartphones but the same ones you can buy in the west. More $100 Androids not iPhones. Also a lot of transport is in Toyotas the same you buy in the west (maybe with less lux specs) etc What doesn't work so well is making things for those other people that you wouldn't use yourself like the One Laptop per Child thing. I bet the people who made that wanted their own kids educated with good teachers, text books and writing, not with crappy laptops.

Brian_K_White 2y ago
They wanted their kids to have a computer of any sort, which they already did. They remembered how much they themselves got out of an XT or Apple II, and how a OLPC is 500x better than those. I got an XT when they were well obsolete and essentially free junk. Getting that thing on to BBS's with a modem that didn't even have mnp5 error correction and figuring out how to get anything out of it's other limitations set me up for life. olpc is if anything too good. It's all complete and buttoned up and there are no problems to solve. It's a useful tool to do a job not enough of them need doing. Python and spreadsheets are not going to feed those kids. I think the reason the XT did so much for me was, 1 I lived in an environment where IT skills are useful and valuable. 2 I had other better computers to aspire to. I couldn't afford a good machine, but I could see them all around so I knew what they could do that mine could not, but I could also see how mine almost could, how it actually had all the same important essence, and I could do a version of all the same things by trading some compromise and some effort and time in place of money. For instance I found a software solution for the modems lack of error correction, and managed to make BBSing functional. And using BBSs in place of Compuserv and Prodigy. It was very rewarding and fun to try to soup up that turd, because it was my turd, and it was infinitely soup-up-able with ISA slots and socketed cpu and empty FPU socket etc. It was exactly like working on a mini bike or a carr (back when cars were mechanical and could be worked on) olpc is like, here's a thing that's already complete, and it's already the best thing around. There is nothing to hack, and nothing to aspire to to make you want to even think to try. And what it's good for as a tool, is a thing no one around you needs you to do.