5 ms·
FYI - If this is a true reproduction of Shazam, it’s under patent by Apple through at least March 2025[1]. [1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US7627477 http
by halfmatthalfcat 2y ago
FYI - If this is a true reproduction of Shazam, it’s under patent by Apple through at least March 2025[1].
[1] https://patents.google.com/patent/US7627477 https://patents.google.com/patent/US7627477
- mathfailure 2y ago[flagged]
- halfmatthalfcat 2y agoI thought my comment would be obvious but anyone using this code for profit within a jurisdiction that honors this patent would be exposed to potential litigation from Apple.
- amelius 2y agoFigure 1 looks interesting since it has both a time and frequency axis, when usually signals have either a time __or__ frequency axis. Now I'm curious how the Fourier (?) transform of a signal at a __single__ given timepoint is even defined ...
- jamessb 2y agoThe concepts you are looking for are the short-time Fourier transform and spectrogram: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-time_Fourier_transform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short-time_Fourier_transform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrogram https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrogram
- earthnail 2y agoJamessb already linked to the right terms. One thing to add is that there is always a tradeoff between time and frequency resolution on short time Fourier transforms. You just can’t have both. It’s always a somewhat unsatisfying tradeoff that still works well in practice.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoI found this out when I was trying to turn an ordinary 5 dollar thrifted musical keyboard into a midi controller by plugging it into my PC, putting it on "sine wave" and using a Goertzel detector The latency for detecting audio-frequency waves is quite bad This also stymied my desire to put digital audio onto a vinyl record :( literally not enough bandwidth
- wbl 2y agoBy definition there is vinyl quality worth of bandwidth on the record.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y agoTrue, honestly the real limiting factor was my signals and encoding lack of knowledge
- VierScar 2y agoI dunno how software patents work but I was under the impression that unless you basically copy paste their code, the courts wouldn't consider it patent infringement as you can't patent the function, but rather the specific thing itself which for software is the exact code itself. But if I'm not understanding something please correct me.
- amelius 2y agoThis cannot be true because if you copied a physical design and made a few irrelevant modifications then it's still infringement.
- wlesieutre 2y agoYou’re thinking of copyright, which covers a specific creative expression. Patents are more general on how something is done and would cover different code that works the same way.
- VierScar 2y agoAh, you're right, thanks
- dawnerd 2y agoOverly simplistic: patents is the process not strictly design. Edit: just to be clear there are design patents too, but I don’t think they’d be granted for software.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- mcfedr 2y agoSoftware patents are magic, you just start your process with 'on a computer do X' and because computers are a piece of hardware you can patent anything you like
- subpub47 2y agoI'm still upset that my "you can't patent software because of the Curry-Howard isomorphism" legal argument never took off. (Basically, software is equivalent to math, and you can't patent math. Therefore, you can't patent software. QED.)
- maeln 2y agoSo not enforceable anywhere else than in the U.S.
- extraduder_ire 2y agoDue to software patents (generally) not being a thing outside the US, or because it was demonstrated before patent application?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- colejohnson66 2y agoThere are other patents for their implementation, and all are filed in multiple countries. Look at the blue sidebar under "Worldwide applications". The linked one is just for the US version of a singular patent. It had applications in 14 other countries and WIPO, 6 of which are still active (plus US).
- subpub47 2y ago[flagged]
- concerndc1tizen 2y agoAny seller of software would be liable for selling software to US customers without a patent license. I'm curious about the legal consequences of freely distributed software (e.g. open source). I wonder if the author/provider could be held liable if they: - knowingly (passively) or actively market to US customers (e.g. provide support) - are aware that US users are using it, and take no actions to prevent its distribution etc. Can someone share their knowledge on this? If European software incidentally infringes a US patent, and it is distributed freely, is the provider then liable? E.g. is Github basically liable for restricting US users from access to (distributing) patent infringing software?
- kube-system 2y agoAs I understand, you can violate a patent just by importing something infringing. Selling it isn't necessarily a requirement for infringement. https://blog.shp.law/index.php/2021/03/28/open-source-software-and-patent-infringement/ https://blog.shp.law/index.php/2021/03/28/open-source-softwa... I'm sure there's tons of patent violations in FOSS, but patents are usually just used to go after companies with big pockets.
- throwaway2562 2y agoSoon!
- shoggouth 2y agoI was under the impression that patents aren’t enforceable on open source projects. I assume I am wrong?
- colejohnson66 2y agoYes. Just because something is open source doesn't mean it's unbound by IP laws.
- ndriscoll 2y agoIt's not whether "IP" laws apply; it's whether source code itself is in scope for patents. Source code is a description of an algorithm, which in principle is what the software patent is supposed to be providing anyway. Patents shouldn't be relevant here for the same reason they aren't relevant to what you write in e.g. a textbook on signal processing where you might find an exact description of how Shazam works. Compiling and running that source code on your computer/as part of a wider system may violate a patent, but my impression was that patents are not relevant to the actual code. Are there test cases in the US around pure source distribution of a patented algorithm? Particularly post-Alice?
- concerndc1tizen 2y agoI wonder if the massive amount of open source software can now be used as elaborate 'prior art' in a way that basically invalidates any software patent that is awarded after the source had been made available? I.e. if any algorithm was already implemented, in some variation, then the patent is not valid? For example, for the infamous Amazon 'one click purchase', if a similar pattern was used, maybe a 'one click start vacuum cleaner robot', would it that patent then be invalid?
- rvnx 2y agoDepends how much money you have. For example, Tesla just patented the Robotaxi one year ago, despite having open-source solutions like Apollo Self-Driving platform. Patents are really an obsolete system that favors the super-rich and the lawyers.
- Thaxll 2y agoI remember a popular HN post from 10 years ago, that was pulled or the source was pulled because Shazam legally threatened the disclosure of the algorithm. I think it's actually the Google drive file pdf capture from OP's article.
- refibrillator 2y agoHere is a link to that HN thread from 2013: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5723863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5723863
- dang 2y agoRelated. Others? How Shazam Works (2003) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40029036 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40029036 - April 2024 (29 comments) How does Shazam work? (2022) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38531428 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38531428 - Dec 2023 (154 comments) An Industrial-Strength Audio Search Algorithm (2003) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33299853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33299853 - Oct 2022 (1 comment) Creating Shazam in Java (2010) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32530056 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32530056 - Aug 2022 (36 comments) Shazam turns 20 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32520593 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32520593 - Aug 2022 (227 comments) How Shazam Works (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23806142 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23806142 - July 2020 (7 comments) Designing an audio adblocker - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18855029 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18855029 - Jan 2019 (186 comments) Show HN: A radio/podcast adblocker featuring ML and Shazam-like fingerprinting - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18459058 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18459058 - Nov 2018 (2 comments) Apple has completed its acquisition of Shazam - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18066724 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18066724 - Sept 2018 (316 comments) Apple Buys Shazam to Boost Apple Music - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15899065 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15899065 - Dec 2017 (156 comments) Apple is close to acquiring Shazam, sources say - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15881896 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15881896 - Dec 2017 (292 comments) Show HN: Shazam-like acoustic fingerprinting of continuous audio streams - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15809291 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15809291 - Nov 2017 (76 comments) How Shazam Works (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15350729 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15350729 - Sept 2017 (13 comments) Tell HN: Shazam picks up song from my kitchen light - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11593305 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11593305 - April 2016 (2 comments) How Shazam works - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9870408 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9870408 - July 2015 (48 comments) Patent infringement claim re: “Creating Shazam in Java” blogpost (2010) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9594480 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9594480 - May 2015 (18 comments) The Shazam Effect (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9593429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9593429 - May 2015 (37 comments) The Shazam Effect - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8634357 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8634357 - Nov 2014 (34 comments) Ask HN: Is there an audio search technology that finds exact and similar audio? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8420141 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8420141 - Oct 2014 (3 comments) Source code example of the Shazam algorithm - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5724442 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5724442 - May 2013 (16 comments) Creating Shazam in Java - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5723863 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5723863 - May 2013 (43 comments) An Industrial-Strength Audio Search Algorithm (Shazam) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2621103 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2621103 - June 2011 (4 comments) Shazam's Search for Songs Creates New Music Jobs - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2215295 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2215295 - Feb 2011 (1 comment) How does the music-identifying app Shazam work its magic? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2214992 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2214992 - Feb 2011 (2 comments) How Shazam Works To Identify (Nearly) Every Song You Throw At It - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1727891 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1727891 - Sept 2010 (1 comment) Implementing Shazam with Java in a weekend - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1702975 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1702975 - Sept 2010 (23 comments) Shazam: not magic after all - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=909263 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=909263 - Oct 2009 (28 comments) How does the music-identifying app Shazam work its magic? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=893353 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=893353 - Oct 2009 (16 comments) Shazam Has 50 Million Users and Secures Investment From KPCB - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=882537 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=882537 - Oct 2009 (13 comments)
- Someone 2y ago“An Industrial-Strength Audio Search Algorithm”, the paper where Shazam describes their algorithm (https://www.ee.columbia.edu/~dpwe/papers/Wang03-shazam.pdf https://www.ee.columbia.edu/~dpwe/papers/Wang03-shazam.pdf) doesn’t have a clear publication date, but https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220723446_An_Industrial_Strength_Audio_Search_Algorithm https://www.researchgate.net/publication/220723446_An_Indust... indicates it is from 2003. That patent was filed in the US on 2004-10-21. IANAL, but to me, that’s a point against that patent in the USA.
- tsimionescu 2y agoYou should note that the USA even today still has a one year grace period between when you first published an idea and when you can valodly file for a patent for that idea. So if they published it in June 2003 but applied for the patent in April 2004, then the patent is well within the grace period and the paper doesn't constitute prior art.
- kajecounterhack 2y agoHow is it a point against the patent if the paper was written by someone under the employment of Shazam? Isn't the point of the patent to award the innovator with the right to profit from the innovation?
- mananaysiempre 2y ago> [T]he point of the patent [is to] award the innovator with the right to profit from the innovation ... in return for disclosing said innovation for use by others (in the patent) instead of keeping it secret. If the disclosure has already happened without the prospect of royalties (such as in a journal article), then the deal is off. But indeed various places have grace periods for that.
- mgillett54 2y agoYou only get a one year grace period after first public discloser to file for a patent in the US. So if the dates in this scenario are: - paper in 2003 - patent 2004-10-21 Only if the paper was released between 2003-10-22 and 2003-12-31 would it meet the one year grace period requirement. Looks like it’s not relevant in this case since they got a provisional patent in 2002, but that’s likely what the above was referring to as “a point against that patent”.
- acedTrex 2y agoSo you are saying to clone the repo now
- csmpltn 2y agoIt's: (1) deriving a simple fingerprint from the FFT of the audio signal (2) simple indexing (3) simple similarity search You need the signatures of all music on earth for this to work though ;)
- adelpozo 2y ago>all the music on earth… I would presume that adding a searchable fingerprint to every torrent link would do it
- selcuka 2y ago> You need the signatures of all music on earth for this to work though ;) Not that difficult with a Spotify subscription. It will take some time, though.
- j33zusjuice 2y agoWould-be Neil Young fans will be left wanting if Spotify is the only reference.
- willhslade 2y agoHe's back... are you talking about his archive? https://open.spotify.com/artist/6v8FB84lnmJs434UJf2Mrm https://open.spotify.com/artist/6v8FB84lnmJs434UJf2Mrm
- j33zusjuice 2y agoOh, I didn’t realize he came back. I googled and only found reports of him leaving (I don’t use Spotify).