4 ms·

> Unions reward seniority over everything else, including skill. I'd much rather have the current environment of being able to leave for something better withou

> Unions reward seniority over everything else, including skill. I'd much rather have the current environment of being able to leave for something better without starting over again at the bottom of the pile. Let's see if you still hold that opinion in a few years when you reach your 40s/50s, can't find a job because ageism, and you have to compete with people who work 16h/day surviving on cold pizza and Red Bull.

AnimalMuppet 2y ago
Well, I'm 62, and I still hold that same opinion.
pc86 2y ago
Already well into that age range and have no trouble finding jobs because I'm productive and continue to upgrade my skills. Those habits are rewarded, as opposed to rewarding you for simply existing longer/having gotten hired earlier.
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  > Already well into that age range and have no trouble finding jobs because I'm productive and continue to upgrade my skills > I "It's not happening to me, so it's not happening" says the programmer type, who isn't carrying 25kg loads up stairs 10+ times a day
  - pc86 2y ago
    I may be a "programmer type" but I do know 25kg isn't a lot of weight to carry around. The article is specifically about tech workers in Amazon, so I think it's pretty clear from that and the rest of the context that I was discussing unions in relation to tech workers. I was disputing the claim that you a) it's hard to get a job in your 40s or 50s, and b) if it is hard, it's because of ageism and not something you did (or didn't do). And as others have pointed out, there is certainly a class of employee who is going to be chugging energy drinks and working 16h a day but if you're 40+ you're not competing with them.
Jensson 2y ago
> Let's see if you still hold that opinion in a few years when you reach your 40s/50s, can't find a job because ageism Unions forcing companies to pay him higher due to his age makes ageism worse, not better.
- xhkkffbf 2y ago
  Yup. I watched a friend get fired because the union salary was double for people with 20 years of work. Yeah, they were more efficient and knowledgeable, but not 2x. So they replaced him with a younger new grad.
  - extra88 2y ago
    What union contract allows firing without cause?
    - xhkkffbf 2y ago
      Pretty much all of them, really. Business concerns are always important because the union doesn't want to kill the business. That would be really bad. In the case of this example, the manager was given a budget and that meant choosing staff. So she told my friend that he could go the easy way or the hard way. There are plenty of causes that the manager could dream up. It's not hard. If you want a cause, they can find one.
      - extra88 2y ago
        > So she told my friend that he could go the easy way or the hard way. There are plenty of causes that the manager could dream up. That's avoiding union contracted processes. Union representation can help a worker when management is concocting bullshit issues. The "hard way" might make things more difficult for a worker (closer supervision, tedious training) but it's definitely harder for the manager than if the worker quits.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
I suspect much of the ageism in tech comes from talented/successful people filtering out of the mainstream workforce by 40s/50s. I think a lot of very skilled people end up with the means to focus on other parts of life, or to do whatever they want in tech and not be beholden to a corporate master. Which isn’t to say that everyone who doesn’t retire by then is bad, just that the ratio is different than 20s and 30s and this probably colors people’s view of the group. Especially with the crazy industry growth we’ve seen over the career of the average 50 year old in tech.
- pc86 2y ago
  The idea that a lot or even a sizeable percentage of tech workers can "focus on other parts of life" or "do whatever they want" within 15-20 years of working is frankly kind of ridiculous. The median developer salary in the US is in the neighborhood of $110k/yr and includes $0 in bonuses and $0 in stock. Outside of the San Francisco bubble simply being able to type JavaScript into a computer does not put you on a trajectory to retire decades before your peers in other industries.
  - pfannkuchen 2y ago
    Is there significant ageism in other parts of the industry though? I thought it was typical for, say, a regional bank software department, to be staffed with a mix of ages up to retirement age, not mostly people in their 20s and early 30s. All of the ageism concern I’ve seen discussed has been about big tech and startups. Are 48 year olds being pushed out of working at mid sized insurance companies?
  - dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
    The median includes the massive number of people under 30 who joined in the last ten years. They likely outnumber everyone over 50 by 10x. It's not a meaningful reference point for this discussion.
    - pc86 2y ago
      Of course it's a meaningful reference point. It is the primary reference point when discussing how much someone can expect to earn in a given profession. Half the developers in the country are making less than that and it's not because they started programming in 2018, it's because 99% of developers do not get any bonus, do not get any stock, and are lucky to hit $200k total comp in their life without going into management. If you're going to say something like 90% of the workforce is under 30 you're going to need to cite something because I just absolutely do not believe that.
Aeolun 2y ago
> have to compete with people who work 16h/day surviving on cold pizza and Red Bull Even at age 36 that’s no contest. If they’re producing crud twice as long that just means there’s more crud. I’ll admit that that might be harder to see for management than the fact they spend twice as long in office.
throwaway48540 2y ago
If you had such long career and still compete with these guys, perhaps consider a different career. I'm in my 30s and have no reason at all to worry about this, as my job is no longer about crunching code as quickly as possible - my input is on a much more strategic higher abstraction level that these younger code crunchers don't have the necessary experience for. The VP that manages me would consider 16h workdays and Redbulls a fireable offense at my position.
itsoktocry 2y ago
>Let's see if you still hold that opinion in a few years when you reach your 40s/50s Do you think none of us are working in our 40s and 50s?

AnimalMuppet 2y ago

Well, I'm 62, and I still hold that same opinion.

pc86 2y ago

Already well into that age range and have no trouble finding jobs because I'm productive and continue to upgrade my skills. Those habits are rewarded, as opposed to rewarding you for simply existing longer/having gotten hired earlier.

red-iron-pine 2y ago
> Already well into that age range and have no trouble finding jobs because I'm productive and continue to upgrade my skills > I "It's not happening to me, so it's not happening" says the programmer type, who isn't carrying 25kg loads up stairs 10+ times a day
- pc86 2y ago
  I may be a "programmer type" but I do know 25kg isn't a lot of weight to carry around. The article is specifically about tech workers in Amazon, so I think it's pretty clear from that and the rest of the context that I was discussing unions in relation to tech workers. I was disputing the claim that you a) it's hard to get a job in your 40s or 50s, and b) if it is hard, it's because of ageism and not something you did (or didn't do). And as others have pointed out, there is certainly a class of employee who is going to be chugging energy drinks and working 16h a day but if you're 40+ you're not competing with them.

Jensson 2y ago

> Let's see if you still hold that opinion in a few years when you reach your 40s/50s, can't find a job because ageism Unions forcing companies to pay him higher due to his age makes ageism worse, not better.

xhkkffbf 2y ago
Yup. I watched a friend get fired because the union salary was double for people with 20 years of work. Yeah, they were more efficient and knowledgeable, but not 2x. So they replaced him with a younger new grad.
- extra88 2y ago
  What union contract allows firing without cause?
  - xhkkffbf 2y ago
    Pretty much all of them, really. Business concerns are always important because the union doesn't want to kill the business. That would be really bad. In the case of this example, the manager was given a budget and that meant choosing staff. So she told my friend that he could go the easy way or the hard way. There are plenty of causes that the manager could dream up. It's not hard. If you want a cause, they can find one.
    - extra88 2y ago
      > So she told my friend that he could go the easy way or the hard way. There are plenty of causes that the manager could dream up. That's avoiding union contracted processes. Union representation can help a worker when management is concocting bullshit issues. The "hard way" might make things more difficult for a worker (closer supervision, tedious training) but it's definitely harder for the manager than if the worker quits.

pfannkuchen 2y ago

I suspect much of the ageism in tech comes from talented/successful people filtering out of the mainstream workforce by 40s/50s. I think a lot of very skilled people end up with the means to focus on other parts of life, or to do whatever they want in tech and not be beholden to a corporate master. Which isn’t to say that everyone who doesn’t retire by then is bad, just that the ratio is different than 20s and 30s and this probably colors people’s view of the group. Especially with the crazy industry growth we’ve seen over the career of the average 50 year old in tech.

pc86 2y ago
The idea that a lot or even a sizeable percentage of tech workers can "focus on other parts of life" or "do whatever they want" within 15-20 years of working is frankly kind of ridiculous. The median developer salary in the US is in the neighborhood of $110k/yr and includes $0 in bonuses and $0 in stock. Outside of the San Francisco bubble simply being able to type JavaScript into a computer does not put you on a trajectory to retire decades before your peers in other industries.
- pfannkuchen 2y ago
  Is there significant ageism in other parts of the industry though? I thought it was typical for, say, a regional bank software department, to be staffed with a mix of ages up to retirement age, not mostly people in their 20s and early 30s. All of the ageism concern I’ve seen discussed has been about big tech and startups. Are 48 year olds being pushed out of working at mid sized insurance companies?
- dontlikeyoueith 2y ago
  The median includes the massive number of people under 30 who joined in the last ten years. They likely outnumber everyone over 50 by 10x. It's not a meaningful reference point for this discussion.
  - pc86 2y ago
    Of course it's a meaningful reference point. It is the primary reference point when discussing how much someone can expect to earn in a given profession. Half the developers in the country are making less than that and it's not because they started programming in 2018, it's because 99% of developers do not get any bonus, do not get any stock, and are lucky to hit $200k total comp in their life without going into management. If you're going to say something like 90% of the workforce is under 30 you're going to need to cite something because I just absolutely do not believe that.

Aeolun 2y ago

> have to compete with people who work 16h/day surviving on cold pizza and Red Bull Even at age 36 that’s no contest. If they’re producing crud twice as long that just means there’s more crud. I’ll admit that that might be harder to see for management than the fact they spend twice as long in office.

throwaway48540 2y ago

If you had such long career and still compete with these guys, perhaps consider a different career. I'm in my 30s and have no reason at all to worry about this, as my job is no longer about crunching code as quickly as possible - my input is on a much more strategic higher abstraction level that these younger code crunchers don't have the necessary experience for. The VP that manages me would consider 16h workdays and Redbulls a fireable offense at my position.

itsoktocry 2y ago

>Let's see if you still hold that opinion in a few years when you reach your 40s/50s Do you think none of us are working in our 40s and 50s?