5 ms·

Federal regulator says Amazon can be held responsible for faulty goods

138 points by mfiguiere 2y ago

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
ranger_danger 2y ago
Seems like this only applies to voluntarily recalled products?
- stebalien 2y ago
  It means that Amazon is responsible for recalling faulty products, not that they're responsible for handling products recalled by the manufacture. In general, the seller is responsible for the products they sell, regardless of who manufactured it. This gives the buyer a clear party they can sue, likely a party that has a presence in their jurisdiction. Amazon can turn around and go after the manufacture, but that's not the buyer's problem. Amazon tried to call themselves a "marketplace" to avoid this liability, but nobody's buying that.
breakingcups 2y ago
Too damn right, and about time.
scohesc 2y ago
I think it was Louis Rossmann who tested out some automotive fuses purchased from Amazon to see if the fuses were actually rated for what was printed on the label. I believe the fuses _failed to fail_ when running amperages higher than what was written on the fuses themselves. Hopefully someone can clarify, my memory is a bit dodgy. Amazon should be liable for the products they sell on their market place. They should not be able to absolve themselves of all liability just because they're a "facilitator" of these marketplaces. They have the ability to manipulate reviews, manipulate what products you see in your search queries, etc. etc. They're culpable in some way as well - since theoretically, if they're manipulating search and reviews, then they must be vetting the products in some way, right? I do not have recourse via the law for the thousands of VONEO, ARKANEL, POESLLE, BUSSUE companies that crop up every day to sell the same products that may or may not be following well-adopted standards. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm hoping we see less potentially dangerous and less counterfeit products on Amazon and other online retailers as a result of this.
- moepstar 2y ago
  > I'm not sure what the answer is Stop buying from Amazon, at least for me it is - i pretty much go out of my way to actively avoid buying there and encourage others to do so.
  - calmbonsai 2y ago
    For basic electronic components and fasteners, I use McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/ https://www.mcmaster.com/. Their website is also amazingly free of cruft.
    - kube-system 2y ago
      For a broader selection of electronics components, one may also consider https://www.digikey.com/ https://www.digikey.com/ and https://www.mouser.com/ https://www.mouser.com/
      - google234123 2y ago
        For a hobbiest, ebay or aliexpress is cheaper. Straight from china.
        ted_dunning 2y ago
        Yes. Aliexpress is cheaper, but they have the sample problem with counterfeit and mislabeled products. Furthermore, they also manipulate ratings and comments. I got an electronic filter from there that was seriously mislabeled and sent in a comment and rating based on that. It never appeared on the product page. Amazon's electronic parts are a complete shambles of junk. Take, for instance, this page which is selling "Germanium Schottky diodes", a thing that does not exist. They have a part number for a Germanium diode, but are apparently selling a silicon based Schottky diode instead. This is simply fraud, but only different from vats of other frauds on the site because it is so blatant. Yes, the Amazon parts are typically more expensive than the Ali parts, but there is very little reason to use either one. If you actually want to receive the part you ordered, go to Digikey or Mouser. The prices will often be better as well.
ffhhj 2y ago
Begin with all the fake laser safety glasses being sold for decades.
klyrs 2y ago
Curious to see if this survives Ohio vs. EPA.
- Animats 2y ago
  Amazon settled a product liability case in Pennsylvania to avoid an adverse decision that they are the "seller".[1] [1] https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2020/09/23/products-liability-lawsuit-against-amazon-has-settled-mooting-pa-supreme-court-argument https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2020/09/23/product...
pbhjpbhj 2y ago
In the UK under the Consumer Rights Act the seller is responsible for goods being of "satisfactory quality" (Section 9?). Very surprised if all jurisdictions don't have similar legislation as it seems like a very basic, rudimentary, customer protection.
- kube-system 2y ago
  There are similar provisions in the US, but they are rudimentary in nature. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchantability https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchant... A product recall, in the US, goes beyond what would be required by this -- requiring a seller to attempt to contact purchasers, provide proactive remedy, etc.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  This is about the marketplace though. Amazon position themselves as an intermediary only, and from their point-of-view, the actual seller should be liable. I'm not sure what the UK law says about this specific case.
  - Carrok 2y ago
    They take products from multiple sources and literally dump them all into one bin, from which they sell. If they were an actually an intermediary only, they would not co-mingle items.
    - mbreese 2y ago
      I think this is a good point. At what point do business practices (co-mingling) remove any sort of liability protections (if they exist) here? Is Amazon just an intermediary if they don’t keep good from different vendors separate? I think there is a good argument to be made here.
      - jjk166 2y ago
        I think the big thing is that Amazon does not own the items listed by these 3rd party vendors. The CPSC is claiming Amazon is a distributor. > A distributor is an independent contractor who buys goods on their own account from an exporter or supplier and resells the goods to customers in their own territory. > They do not act as a communication channel between the supplier and the customer and normally do not have authority to create a contract between the customer and the supplier or exporter. I would say Amazon is legitimately in a gray zone between providing 3PL services and being a distributor. Amazon is facilitating payments, but it's not really reselling things it has already purchased. Amazon can make a strong argument it does facilitate communication between the supplier and customer, given that the person making the listing can put lots of information on the sale page and there is a mechanism for the seller to directly answer consumer questions, though conversely Amazon has a lot of influence over that communication and the government has a strong argument that the consumer is only entering into a contract with Amazon. Really the issue is that Amazon is just too horizontally integrated. If it were split up into a pure 3PL service, a pure financial transaction handler, a pure online sales listing platform, and a pure competing retailer, none of those four entities would have an obligation to recall a third party vendor's product. It's only when you combine these into a monstrous chimera that the lines blur.
nytesky 2y ago
My sister said they received a counterfeit book — how is that possible since I thought Amazon guarded their book supply chain at least?
- wil421 2y ago
  I received counterfeit G skill RAM from Amazon and the seller was Amazon. It was a space blanket put into an obviously fake RAM box even the dimensions were wrong. I bought 2 and one was fake, same shipment too.
  - extraduder_ire 2y ago
    A common way for this to happen is via return scams, where someone buys something from amazon and returns a fake. They are rarely checked on the way back in, and are often even liquidated.
- justinclift 2y ago
  Amazon is famously awash with counterfeit books. It's been an ongoing problem for years. :( • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37055909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37055909 (1 year ago) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32287936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32287936 (2 years ago) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199135 (5 years ago) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13924546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13924546 (7 years ago)
  - datavirtue 2y ago
    It almost as if they created this problem. Where else would this have occurred in the past? I have no idea where I could have gotten a counterfiet book before Amazon.
    - frumper 2y ago
      A flea market was a great place to get cheap knock offs of all sorts of things.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
b3ing 2y ago
Then Newegg and Walmart are as well, because they set up the same selling market
- hazmazlaz 2y ago
  Target.com also.

138 points by mfiguiere 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

ranger_danger 2y ago

Seems like this only applies to voluntarily recalled products?

stebalien 2y ago
It means that Amazon is responsible for recalling faulty products, not that they're responsible for handling products recalled by the manufacture. In general, the seller is responsible for the products they sell, regardless of who manufactured it. This gives the buyer a clear party they can sue, likely a party that has a presence in their jurisdiction. Amazon can turn around and go after the manufacture, but that's not the buyer's problem. Amazon tried to call themselves a "marketplace" to avoid this liability, but nobody's buying that.

breakingcups 2y ago

Too damn right, and about time.

scohesc 2y ago

I think it was Louis Rossmann who tested out some automotive fuses purchased from Amazon to see if the fuses were actually rated for what was printed on the label. I believe the fuses _failed to fail_ when running amperages higher than what was written on the fuses themselves. Hopefully someone can clarify, my memory is a bit dodgy. Amazon should be liable for the products they sell on their market place. They should not be able to absolve themselves of all liability just because they're a "facilitator" of these marketplaces. They have the ability to manipulate reviews, manipulate what products you see in your search queries, etc. etc. They're culpable in some way as well - since theoretically, if they're manipulating search and reviews, then they must be vetting the products in some way, right? I do not have recourse via the law for the thousands of VONEO, ARKANEL, POESLLE, BUSSUE companies that crop up every day to sell the same products that may or may not be following well-adopted standards. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm hoping we see less potentially dangerous and less counterfeit products on Amazon and other online retailers as a result of this.

moepstar 2y ago
> I'm not sure what the answer is Stop buying from Amazon, at least for me it is - i pretty much go out of my way to actively avoid buying there and encourage others to do so.
- calmbonsai 2y ago
  For basic electronic components and fasteners, I use McMaster-Carr https://www.mcmaster.com/ https://www.mcmaster.com/. Their website is also amazingly free of cruft.
  - kube-system 2y ago
    For a broader selection of electronics components, one may also consider https://www.digikey.com/ https://www.digikey.com/ and https://www.mouser.com/ https://www.mouser.com/
    - google234123 2y ago
      For a hobbiest, ebay or aliexpress is cheaper. Straight from china.
      - ted_dunning 2y ago
        Yes. Aliexpress is cheaper, but they have the sample problem with counterfeit and mislabeled products. Furthermore, they also manipulate ratings and comments. I got an electronic filter from there that was seriously mislabeled and sent in a comment and rating based on that. It never appeared on the product page. Amazon's electronic parts are a complete shambles of junk. Take, for instance, this page which is selling "Germanium Schottky diodes", a thing that does not exist. They have a part number for a Germanium diode, but are apparently selling a silicon based Schottky diode instead. This is simply fraud, but only different from vats of other frauds on the site because it is so blatant. Yes, the Amazon parts are typically more expensive than the Ali parts, but there is very little reason to use either one. If you actually want to receive the part you ordered, go to Digikey or Mouser. The prices will often be better as well.

ffhhj 2y ago

Begin with all the fake laser safety glasses being sold for decades.

klyrs 2y ago

Curious to see if this survives Ohio vs. EPA.

Animats 2y ago
Amazon settled a product liability case in Pennsylvania to avoid an adverse decision that they are the "seller".[1] [1] https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2020/09/23/products-liability-lawsuit-against-amazon-has-settled-mooting-pa-supreme-court-argument https://www.law.com/thelegalintelligencer/2020/09/23/product...

pbhjpbhj 2y ago

In the UK under the Consumer Rights Act the seller is responsible for goods being of "satisfactory quality" (Section 9?). Very surprised if all jurisdictions don't have similar legislation as it seems like a very basic, rudimentary, customer protection.

kube-system 2y ago
There are similar provisions in the US, but they are rudimentary in nature. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchantability https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/implied_warranty_of_merchant... A product recall, in the US, goes beyond what would be required by this -- requiring a seller to attempt to contact purchasers, provide proactive remedy, etc.
cassianoleal 2y ago
This is about the marketplace though. Amazon position themselves as an intermediary only, and from their point-of-view, the actual seller should be liable. I'm not sure what the UK law says about this specific case.
- Carrok 2y ago
  They take products from multiple sources and literally dump them all into one bin, from which they sell. If they were an actually an intermediary only, they would not co-mingle items.
  - mbreese 2y ago
    I think this is a good point. At what point do business practices (co-mingling) remove any sort of liability protections (if they exist) here? Is Amazon just an intermediary if they don’t keep good from different vendors separate? I think there is a good argument to be made here.
    - jjk166 2y ago
      I think the big thing is that Amazon does not own the items listed by these 3rd party vendors. The CPSC is claiming Amazon is a distributor. > A distributor is an independent contractor who buys goods on their own account from an exporter or supplier and resells the goods to customers in their own territory. > They do not act as a communication channel between the supplier and the customer and normally do not have authority to create a contract between the customer and the supplier or exporter. I would say Amazon is legitimately in a gray zone between providing 3PL services and being a distributor. Amazon is facilitating payments, but it's not really reselling things it has already purchased. Amazon can make a strong argument it does facilitate communication between the supplier and customer, given that the person making the listing can put lots of information on the sale page and there is a mechanism for the seller to directly answer consumer questions, though conversely Amazon has a lot of influence over that communication and the government has a strong argument that the consumer is only entering into a contract with Amazon. Really the issue is that Amazon is just too horizontally integrated. If it were split up into a pure 3PL service, a pure financial transaction handler, a pure online sales listing platform, and a pure competing retailer, none of those four entities would have an obligation to recall a third party vendor's product. It's only when you combine these into a monstrous chimera that the lines blur.

nytesky 2y ago

My sister said they received a counterfeit book — how is that possible since I thought Amazon guarded their book supply chain at least?

wil421 2y ago
I received counterfeit G skill RAM from Amazon and the seller was Amazon. It was a space blanket put into an obviously fake RAM box even the dimensions were wrong. I bought 2 and one was fake, same shipment too.
- extraduder_ire 2y ago
  A common way for this to happen is via return scams, where someone buys something from amazon and returns a fake. They are rarely checked on the way back in, and are often even liquidated.
justinclift 2y ago
Amazon is famously awash with counterfeit books. It's been an ongoing problem for years. :( • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37055909 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37055909 (1 year ago) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32287936 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32287936 (2 years ago) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19199135 (5 years ago) • https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13924546 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13924546 (7 years ago)
- datavirtue 2y ago
  It almost as if they created this problem. Where else would this have occurred in the past? I have no idea where I could have gotten a counterfiet book before Amazon.
  - frumper 2y ago
    A flea market was a great place to get cheap knock offs of all sorts of things.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

b3ing 2y ago

Then Newegg and Walmart are as well, because they set up the same selling market

hazmazlaz 2y ago
Target.com also.