3 ms·

E-ink products will do this better than light emitting screens.

by magic_hamster 2y ago

Dylan16807 2y ago
Not if you want multiple frames per minute.
- fragmede 2y ago
  60 Hz eInk display https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ
  - chgs 2y ago
    That video literally says “not e-ink”
    - Izkata 2y ago
      Title, description, and several images in the beginning of the video say it is. It's not until 8:52 that he says it's not and describes how it's different. Easy mistake to make.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        I agree that those are all set up to confuse the viewer, but I will point out that they call it "e-paper" and the images and the top of the description talk about it competing with "e-ink".
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    That's a clickbait LCD.
  - radley 2y ago
    It may not be eInk, but it's fast enough that it might work as a background layer
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    That's e-paper, not e-ink, and AFAIU is based on rapid-response transflective LCD: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...> There was a recent HN discussion (and additional submissions), see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511> One concern I have is that if the screen is LCD-based, it'll interact poorly with polarised sunglasses. All that said, there are 60 Hz e-ink displays, see my earlier comment.
    - avery17 2y ago
      Well now you're just being pedantic. The result is essentially the same.
      - dredmorbius 2y ago
        No, they are NOT the same, either in underlying physical process or the resulting display characteristics. E-Ink[tm] is electrophoretic, and works by migrating dark capsules across a charge gradient. That physical migration takes time, and is subject to degraded effectiveness at higher response speeds. This is why e-ink display quality increases with slower responses, and decreases with faster responses, giving a fundamental trade-off. Even given this, it's possible to drive e-ink at 16--60 Hz, and I've definitely seen the lower end myself. With only a slight degradation in display quality (slight ghosting), multi-Hz refresh is possible (roughly 4-8 Hz in my estimation). I've used that extensively. E-Paper, a term I'm only recently acquainted with, is based on transflective LCD (liquid crystal display) technology. That's a distinct process in which the polarisation of a crystal matrix is directly manipulated under an applied current, which is an electronic process and correspondingly much more rapid and reliable than electrophoretic transitions. A key difference is that whilst the image on an e-ink display will persist indefinitely without power, an LCD screen requires constant, though low, power. "Transflective" means that the background layer can either reflect incident light (e.g., under bright indoor or outdoor sunlight conditions) or transmit a background light. LCD response times range from ~60 Hz (16 millisecond) to 180 Hz (5 millisecond). There may be a slight decay time to the display, again, I've not seen large tablet-style displays, though the basic technology is the same as has been used in digital watches for decades, also the OLPC (one laptop per child) project launched in 2005, 19 years ago, and the Pebble smart watch. It's a mature technology. The principle relative drawbacks of E-Paper relative to E-Ink are probably greater power consumption (though still lower than emissive displays), a narrower field of view (due to the top polarising layer), and difficulty viewing through polarised sunglasses for those wearing them. I suspect that the overall contrast of E-Paper is low (given the polarising filter which blocks half the incident or transmitted light, one source gives a 30:1 contrast: <https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/ https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/>), though E-Ink has a similar issue. Advantages are going to be faster response and no ghosting. Color E-Paper probably has similar low-saturation properties to e-ink. You're not going to get vivid colour, but you can probably get some colour distinction in a desaturated / pastel appearance. For large displays of the type suggested by TFA, E-Paper should be reasonably well suited, particularly in strongly-backlit transparent displays (e.g., windows or similar panels), and where mains power is directly available. Rapid and/or continuous updates (up to 180 Hz), for scrolling, animation, video, or other updates) would be readily supported. Both E-Ink and E-Paper would be well-suited to daylit greyscale or multicolour (though generally not true-colour) displays, updating as much as a few times per second to every few seconds, suitable for largely textual / graphic displays without extensive animation or video. Please do educate yourself.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it. There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz). <https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-resolution-e-ink-monitor-announced-modos-paper-delivers-1200p-in-a-133-inch-form-factor https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...> <https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-on-crowd-supply https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...> Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4 https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4> It's true that some colour displays currently run slower. There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting. (I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.) And yes, I'll also freely admit that e-ink is better tuned to less-active text displays. That said, it absolutely can refresh multiple times per minute if necessary, and that's sufficient for quite a number of display applications.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Those look like a blurry mess when you put video on them. "Possible" is not good enough. With black and white you can probably get a clean frame change in a second. With color, if you want it to look good it's going to take a long time to swap images. And even then the people you're trying to impress will not like the whole screen flashing when it clears ghosts. > There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD That's just a marketing name. It's worth talking about but pretty separately. And if you want color the brightness is going to be awful.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      Your original claim was that e-ink displays are incapable of "multiple frames per minute". Even allowing for hyperbole, that's simply not true, and it's well past time we retired that very tired meme. Fact is that e-ink delivers acceptable multi-Hz update capabilities. I've used one such device (Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, with E INK Mobius and Carta HD display). I use it for interactive applications, animations, and video regularly. Yes, it's advisable to change the display mode, but at anything but the highest display quality, most animations are tolerable. Not ideal, but tolerable. And you don't have to take my word for it, there are numerous reviews and videos showing performance. And if you're specifically designing applications or use-cases for the devices capabilities, you can do far better than that. Which would include frequent updates. Appropriate use of technology means playing to strengths, and e-ink has numerous capabilities emissive displays simply cannot match which I've discussed previously, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797>. For a large-format display application you absolutely can have frequent updates. More than once a minute is trivial, and as often as several times a second involves very few distractions or compromises. No, you're not going to prefer e-ink for gaming or as your principle display for streaming video over an OLED or similar monitor. But both of those uses are reasonably within achievable capabilities of products shipped years ago. "Gaming on e-ink" turns up numerous demos. No, it's not what you'd get on a gaming rig, but despite everything you've said and doubled-down on, it is possible: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg> (Actual usage starts around 8 minutes in.) Similarly, that gaming rig doesn't do so hot in direct sunlight, persisting display, or low-power consumption. Each tech has its strengths and weaknesses. The distinction between "E Ink" and "E Paper" is made because they're both extant shipping technologies, similar in some regards but based on distinct and different processes, and with different display capabilities. Accuracy, truth, and distinctions all matter.

E-ink products will do this better than light emitting screens.

Dylan16807 2y ago

Not if you want multiple frames per minute.

fragmede 2y ago
60 Hz eInk display https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ
- chgs 2y ago
  That video literally says “not e-ink”
  - Izkata 2y ago
    Title, description, and several images in the beginning of the video say it is. It's not until 8:52 that he says it's not and describes how it's different. Easy mistake to make.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      I agree that those are all set up to confuse the viewer, but I will point out that they call it "e-paper" and the images and the top of the description talk about it competing with "e-ink".
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  That's a clickbait LCD.
- radley 2y ago
  It may not be eInk, but it's fast enough that it might work as a background layer
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  That's e-paper, not e-ink, and AFAIU is based on rapid-response transflective LCD: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...> There was a recent HN discussion (and additional submissions), see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511> One concern I have is that if the screen is LCD-based, it'll interact poorly with polarised sunglasses. All that said, there are 60 Hz e-ink displays, see my earlier comment.
  - avery17 2y ago
    Well now you're just being pedantic. The result is essentially the same.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      No, they are NOT the same, either in underlying physical process or the resulting display characteristics. E-Ink[tm] is electrophoretic, and works by migrating dark capsules across a charge gradient. That physical migration takes time, and is subject to degraded effectiveness at higher response speeds. This is why e-ink display quality increases with slower responses, and decreases with faster responses, giving a fundamental trade-off. Even given this, it's possible to drive e-ink at 16--60 Hz, and I've definitely seen the lower end myself. With only a slight degradation in display quality (slight ghosting), multi-Hz refresh is possible (roughly 4-8 Hz in my estimation). I've used that extensively. E-Paper, a term I'm only recently acquainted with, is based on transflective LCD (liquid crystal display) technology. That's a distinct process in which the polarisation of a crystal matrix is directly manipulated under an applied current, which is an electronic process and correspondingly much more rapid and reliable than electrophoretic transitions. A key difference is that whilst the image on an e-ink display will persist indefinitely without power, an LCD screen requires constant, though low, power. "Transflective" means that the background layer can either reflect incident light (e.g., under bright indoor or outdoor sunlight conditions) or transmit a background light. LCD response times range from ~60 Hz (16 millisecond) to 180 Hz (5 millisecond). There may be a slight decay time to the display, again, I've not seen large tablet-style displays, though the basic technology is the same as has been used in digital watches for decades, also the OLPC (one laptop per child) project launched in 2005, 19 years ago, and the Pebble smart watch. It's a mature technology. The principle relative drawbacks of E-Paper relative to E-Ink are probably greater power consumption (though still lower than emissive displays), a narrower field of view (due to the top polarising layer), and difficulty viewing through polarised sunglasses for those wearing them. I suspect that the overall contrast of E-Paper is low (given the polarising filter which blocks half the incident or transmitted light, one source gives a 30:1 contrast: <https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/ https://www.newvisiondisplay.com/transflective-lcds/>), though E-Ink has a similar issue. Advantages are going to be faster response and no ghosting. Color E-Paper probably has similar low-saturation properties to e-ink. You're not going to get vivid colour, but you can probably get some colour distinction in a desaturated / pastel appearance. For large displays of the type suggested by TFA, E-Paper should be reasonably well suited, particularly in strongly-backlit transparent displays (e.g., windows or similar panels), and where mains power is directly available. Rapid and/or continuous updates (up to 180 Hz), for scrolling, animation, video, or other updates) would be readily supported. Both E-Ink and E-Paper would be well-suited to daylit greyscale or multicolour (though generally not true-colour) displays, updating as much as a few times per second to every few seconds, suitable for largely textual / graphic displays without extensive animation or video. Please do educate yourself.
dredmorbius 2y ago
Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it. There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz). <https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-resolution-e-ink-monitor-announced-modos-paper-delivers-1200p-in-a-133-inch-form-factor https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...> <https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-on-crowd-supply https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...> Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4 https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4> It's true that some colour displays currently run slower. There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting. (I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.) And yes, I'll also freely admit that e-ink is better tuned to less-active text displays. That said, it absolutely can refresh multiple times per minute if necessary, and that's sufficient for quite a number of display applications.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Those look like a blurry mess when you put video on them. "Possible" is not good enough. With black and white you can probably get a clean frame change in a second. With color, if you want it to look good it's going to take a long time to swap images. And even then the people you're trying to impress will not like the whole screen flashing when it clears ghosts. > There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD That's just a marketing name. It's worth talking about but pretty separately. And if you want color the brightness is going to be awful.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Your original claim was that e-ink displays are incapable of "multiple frames per minute". Even allowing for hyperbole, that's simply not true, and it's well past time we retired that very tired meme. Fact is that e-ink delivers acceptable multi-Hz update capabilities. I've used one such device (Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, with E INK Mobius and Carta HD display). I use it for interactive applications, animations, and video regularly. Yes, it's advisable to change the display mode, but at anything but the highest display quality, most animations are tolerable. Not ideal, but tolerable. And you don't have to take my word for it, there are numerous reviews and videos showing performance. And if you're specifically designing applications or use-cases for the devices capabilities, you can do far better than that. Which would include frequent updates. Appropriate use of technology means playing to strengths, and e-ink has numerous capabilities emissive displays simply cannot match which I've discussed previously, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797>. For a large-format display application you absolutely can have frequent updates. More than once a minute is trivial, and as often as several times a second involves very few distractions or compromises. No, you're not going to prefer e-ink for gaming or as your principle display for streaming video over an OLED or similar monitor. But both of those uses are reasonably within achievable capabilities of products shipped years ago. "Gaming on e-ink" turns up numerous demos. No, it's not what you'd get on a gaming rig, but despite everything you've said and doubled-down on, it is possible: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg> (Actual usage starts around 8 minutes in.) Similarly, that gaming rig doesn't do so hot in direct sunlight, persisting display, or low-power consumption. Each tech has its strengths and weaknesses. The distinction between "E Ink" and "E Paper" is made because they're both extant shipping technologies, similar in some regards but based on distinct and different processes, and with different display capabilities. Accuracy, truth, and distinctions all matter.