4 ms·

The issue I really want to see addressed is the development of TVs that perform well in bright rooms or outdoor environments. While the Samsung Terrace reported

by tlogan 2y ago

The issue I really want to see addressed is the development of TVs that perform well in bright rooms or outdoor environments. While the Samsung Terrace reportedly does a good job, its price is prohibitively high. Is creating such TVs a particularly difficult challenge?

germinalphrase 2y ago
Yes. The sun is incredibly bright.
blackoil 2y ago
Curtains/blinds are cheap. DIY https://youtu.be/WlFVPnGEb8o https://youtu.be/WlFVPnGEb8o
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Dylan16807 2y ago
A typical TV is 300-400 nits, and 1000 in smaller regions gives you pretty good HDR. A light gray object in sunlight is above 10,000 nits. It's hard. A Terrace can do 1500+ nits, and it's about the best you can get for full-screen brightness, though for 50%-of-screen brightness rtings lists some TCL models as beating it and some several other models as being close.
magic_hamster 2y ago
E-ink products will do this better than light emitting screens.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  Not if you want multiple frames per minute.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    60 Hz eInk display https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ
    - chgs 2y ago
      That video literally says “not e-ink”
      - Izkata 2y ago
        Title, description, and several images in the beginning of the video say it is. It's not until 8:52 that he says it's not and describes how it's different. Easy mistake to make.
        Dylan16807 2y ago
        I agree that those are all set up to confuse the viewer, but I will point out that they call it "e-paper" and the images and the top of the description talk about it competing with "e-ink".
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      That's a clickbait LCD.
    - radley 2y ago
      It may not be eInk, but it's fast enough that it might work as a background layer
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      That's e-paper, not e-ink, and AFAIU is based on rapid-response transflective LCD: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...> There was a recent HN discussion (and additional submissions), see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511> One concern I have is that if the screen is LCD-based, it'll interact poorly with polarised sunglasses. All that said, there are 60 Hz e-ink displays, see my earlier comment.
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it. There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz). <https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-resolution-e-ink-monitor-announced-modos-paper-delivers-1200p-in-a-133-inch-form-factor https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...> <https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-on-crowd-supply https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...> Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4 https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4> It's true that some colour displays currently run slower. There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting. (I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.) And yes, I'll also freely admit that e-ink is better tuned to less-active text displays. That said, it absolutely can refresh multiple times per minute if necessary, and that's sufficient for quite a number of display applications.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      Those look like a blurry mess when you put video on them. "Possible" is not good enough. With black and white you can probably get a clean frame change in a second. With color, if you want it to look good it's going to take a long time to swap images. And even then the people you're trying to impress will not like the whole screen flashing when it clears ghosts. > There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD That's just a marketing name. It's worth talking about but pretty separately. And if you want color the brightness is going to be awful.
      - dredmorbius 2y ago
        Your original claim was that e-ink displays are incapable of "multiple frames per minute". Even allowing for hyperbole, that's simply not true, and it's well past time we retired that very tired meme. Fact is that e-ink delivers acceptable multi-Hz update capabilities. I've used one such device (Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, with E INK Mobius and Carta HD display). I use it for interactive applications, animations, and video regularly. Yes, it's advisable to change the display mode, but at anything but the highest display quality, most animations are tolerable. Not ideal, but tolerable. And you don't have to take my word for it, there are numerous reviews and videos showing performance. And if you're specifically designing applications or use-cases for the devices capabilities, you can do far better than that. Which would include frequent updates. Appropriate use of technology means playing to strengths, and e-ink has numerous capabilities emissive displays simply cannot match which I've discussed previously, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797>. For a large-format display application you absolutely can have frequent updates. More than once a minute is trivial, and as often as several times a second involves very few distractions or compromises. No, you're not going to prefer e-ink for gaming or as your principle display for streaming video over an OLED or similar monitor. But both of those uses are reasonably within achievable capabilities of products shipped years ago. "Gaming on e-ink" turns up numerous demos. No, it's not what you'd get on a gaming rig, but despite everything you've said and doubled-down on, it is possible: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg> (Actual usage starts around 8 minutes in.) Similarly, that gaming rig doesn't do so hot in direct sunlight, persisting display, or low-power consumption. Each tech has its strengths and weaknesses. The distinction between "E Ink" and "E Paper" is made because they're both extant shipping technologies, similar in some regards but based on distinct and different processes, and with different display capabilities. Accuracy, truth, and distinctions all matter.
nox101 2y ago
Not helpful I know but I'm always amazed at how well the outdoor screens in Times Square, Shibuya Crossing, etc... do in the day. The 2 screens on the top left in this image (https://mediaim.expedia.com/destination/1/7b3980b3f80540d120199ebec1aa5ec3.jpg https://mediaim.expedia.com/destination/1/7b3980b3f80540d120...) have no trouble displaying bright white or other colors in the midday sun. (note: that photo itself looks edited, over saturated, high contrast) but those displays look great in person.
- Hendrikto 2y ago
  They have HUGE pixels so they can crank the brightness while still being able to cool them. The ”just“ use LED matrices. It‘s almost completely different from how normal displays work.
  - echoangle 2y ago
    Isn’t that basically exactly how an OLED screen works? What’s different, except that it’s made from discrete components and not integrated?
    - Hendrikto 2y ago
      That is the main difference, but it is a huge one. The manufacturing process is utterly different, and the components are MUCH bigger.
    - ssl-3 2y ago
      That's a pretty big difference, isn't it? Separating the power-bits* from the light-emitting bits (even just to have them on opposite sides of a PCB) lets each of these bits dissipate more heat. The nature of their use (where we only generally pay close attention to huge outdoor screens occasionally) also has lets the big, bright outdoor displays get away with artifacts (like sometimes-noticeable scanlines, or terrible color gamut) that just won't fly on a TV that is meant to be watched day after day -- by the same small group of people -- for years. (*No, OLEDs don't switch themselves on and off; they're still just diodes like other LEDs are. There's transistors integrated into the panel to do that part.)

by tlogan 2y ago

germinalphrase 2y ago

Yes. The sun is incredibly bright.

blackoil 2y ago

Curtains/blinds are cheap. DIY https://youtu.be/WlFVPnGEb8o https://youtu.be/WlFVPnGEb8o

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

Dylan16807 2y ago

A typical TV is 300-400 nits, and 1000 in smaller regions gives you pretty good HDR. A light gray object in sunlight is above 10,000 nits. It's hard. A Terrace can do 1500+ nits, and it's about the best you can get for full-screen brightness, though for 50%-of-screen brightness rtings lists some TCL models as beating it and some several other models as being close.

magic_hamster 2y ago

E-ink products will do this better than light emitting screens.

Dylan16807 2y ago
Not if you want multiple frames per minute.
- fragmede 2y ago
  60 Hz eInk display https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ https://youtu.be/iHeIw9rXzUQ
  - chgs 2y ago
    That video literally says “not e-ink”
    - Izkata 2y ago
      Title, description, and several images in the beginning of the video say it is. It's not until 8:52 that he says it's not and describes how it's different. Easy mistake to make.
      - Dylan16807 2y ago
        I agree that those are all set up to confuse the viewer, but I will point out that they call it "e-paper" and the images and the top of the description talk about it competing with "e-ink".
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    That's a clickbait LCD.
  - radley 2y ago
    It may not be eInk, but it's fast enough that it might work as a background layer
  - dredmorbius 2y ago
    That's e-paper, not e-ink, and AFAIU is based on rapid-response transflective LCD: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_d...> There was a recent HN discussion (and additional submissions), see: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40921511> One concern I have is that if the screen is LCD-based, it'll interact poorly with polarised sunglasses. All that said, there are 60 Hz e-ink displays, see my earlier comment.
- dredmorbius 2y ago
  Even at high-quality display, B&W e-ink offers 2--4 Hz refresh, and can offer ~16 Hz or better in "X-Mode" display. I won't pretend that's great video quality, but it is possible to view animations or videos using it. There are higher-refresh displays as well. This one advertises 60 Hz refresh and colour (it's not clear whether colour can drive at 60 Hz). <https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-resolution-e-ink-monitor-announced-modos-paper-delivers-1200p-in-a-133-inch-form-factor https://www.tomshardware.com/monitors/new-open-source-high-r...> <https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-on-crowd-supply https://www.modos.tech/blog/modos-paper-monitor-pre-launch-o...> Video demo: <https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4 https://yewtu.be/embed/pXn-bAwzNv4> It's true that some colour displays currently run slower. There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD, which offers far higher refresh and AFAIU no ghosting. (I've been using an e-ink tablet for the past 3+ years, and frankly love it.) And yes, I'll also freely admit that e-ink is better tuned to less-active text displays. That said, it absolutely can refresh multiple times per minute if necessary, and that's sufficient for quite a number of display applications.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    Those look like a blurry mess when you put video on them. "Possible" is not good enough. With black and white you can probably get a clean frame change in a second. With color, if you want it to look good it's going to take a long time to swap images. And even then the people you're trying to impress will not like the whole screen flashing when it clears ghosts. > There's also an "e-paper" technology, based on LCD That's just a marketing name. It's worth talking about but pretty separately. And if you want color the brightness is going to be awful.
    - dredmorbius 2y ago
      Your original claim was that e-ink displays are incapable of "multiple frames per minute". Even allowing for hyperbole, that's simply not true, and it's well past time we retired that very tired meme. Fact is that e-ink delivers acceptable multi-Hz update capabilities. I've used one such device (Onyx BOOX Max Lumi, with E INK Mobius and Carta HD display). I use it for interactive applications, animations, and video regularly. Yes, it's advisable to change the display mode, but at anything but the highest display quality, most animations are tolerable. Not ideal, but tolerable. And you don't have to take my word for it, there are numerous reviews and videos showing performance. And if you're specifically designing applications or use-cases for the devices capabilities, you can do far better than that. Which would include frequent updates. Appropriate use of technology means playing to strengths, and e-ink has numerous capabilities emissive displays simply cannot match which I've discussed previously, e.g., <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31396797>. For a large-format display application you absolutely can have frequent updates. More than once a minute is trivial, and as often as several times a second involves very few distractions or compromises. No, you're not going to prefer e-ink for gaming or as your principle display for streaming video over an OLED or similar monitor. But both of those uses are reasonably within achievable capabilities of products shipped years ago. "Gaming on e-ink" turns up numerous demos. No, it's not what you'd get on a gaming rig, but despite everything you've said and doubled-down on, it is possible: <https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg https://yewtu.be/watch?v=gPwiNVcppmg> (Actual usage starts around 8 minutes in.) Similarly, that gaming rig doesn't do so hot in direct sunlight, persisting display, or low-power consumption. Each tech has its strengths and weaknesses. The distinction between "E Ink" and "E Paper" is made because they're both extant shipping technologies, similar in some regards but based on distinct and different processes, and with different display capabilities. Accuracy, truth, and distinctions all matter.

nox101 2y ago

Not helpful I know but I'm always amazed at how well the outdoor screens in Times Square, Shibuya Crossing, etc... do in the day. The 2 screens on the top left in this image (https://mediaim.expedia.com/destination/1/7b3980b3f80540d120199ebec1aa5ec3.jpg https://mediaim.expedia.com/destination/1/7b3980b3f80540d120...) have no trouble displaying bright white or other colors in the midday sun. (note: that photo itself looks edited, over saturated, high contrast) but those displays look great in person.

Hendrikto 2y ago
They have HUGE pixels so they can crank the brightness while still being able to cool them. The ”just“ use LED matrices. It‘s almost completely different from how normal displays work.
- echoangle 2y ago
  Isn’t that basically exactly how an OLED screen works? What’s different, except that it’s made from discrete components and not integrated?
  - Hendrikto 2y ago
    That is the main difference, but it is a huge one. The manufacturing process is utterly different, and the components are MUCH bigger.
  - ssl-3 2y ago
    That's a pretty big difference, isn't it? Separating the power-bits* from the light-emitting bits (even just to have them on opposite sides of a PCB) lets each of these bits dissipate more heat. The nature of their use (where we only generally pay close attention to huge outdoor screens occasionally) also has lets the big, bright outdoor displays get away with artifacts (like sometimes-noticeable scanlines, or terrible color gamut) that just won't fly on a TV that is meant to be watched day after day -- by the same small group of people -- for years. (*No, OLEDs don't switch themselves on and off; they're still just diodes like other LEDs are. There's transistors integrated into the panel to do that part.)