11 ms·

> the titanium heart is only meant to keep a patient alive while they wait for a heart transplant, which has always been the goal of fully mechanical heart deve

by Jyaif 2y ago

> the titanium heart is only meant to keep a patient alive while they wait for a heart transplant, which has always been the goal of fully mechanical heart development at this stage of the game. Why are we not aiming higher?

nightfly 2y ago
Because we can barely get a temporary one working now. I'm sure they'd love to be able to make a permanent one, it's just not in the cards yet.
WJW 2y ago
Same reason as why we're not developing starships to go to the other side of the Milky way at the moment: We don't know how to and the leap from "what we can do right now" (ie we struggle to get people to the moon permanently) and "other side of the galaxy" is simply too big.
didgeoridoo 2y ago
This article does a good job of outlining the challenges faced: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230217-the-61-year-long-search-for-artificial-hearts https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230217-the-61-year-long... From the outside, it looks like a race between figuring out the biocompatibility and power issues for total artificial hearts vs. figuring out the immunological issues for xenografts (pig hearts, mostly). If I had to put money on it, I’d bet that the xenografts win. It doesn’t seem like we’ve made huge strides toward solving the power and durability requirements of total artificial hearts, while immunology advances are happening rapidly. Exciting times, nonetheless.
- iancmceachern 2y ago
  Totally, I've been following that space closely as well. Amazing times indeed, we are seeing xenografts and artificial organs in use.
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Would be nice if a pig didn’t have to die to save a human though. This is not something everyone cares about but some people (like me) do care. Hopefully some day we can advance the technology enough with artificial solutions.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - didgeoridoo 2y ago
    This is honestly a pretty niche concern. Even most religions that strictly forbid eating pork make an exception if a human’s life is at stake. Your best bet would probably be in advocating for the pigs to be engineered to prevent cortical development, ensuring they don’t become anything beyond twitching, unconscious organ bags. In many ways I think people would find this more disturbing, though.
    - gregoryl 2y ago
      Something like 6% to 10% of the population is vegan, a bit more than niche!
      - HPsquared 2y ago
        That sounds high. Are we talking about India here?
        JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > That sounds high. Are we talking about India here? It sounds high even for India. About 40% of Indians are vegetarian, a third if we exclude those who eat eggs [1]. The part of the country where vegetarianism is most rampant, the North, is also the highest dairy-consuming part of the country [2]. In any case, while medical veganism is something to think about, it's not worth prioritising until after we have reliable artificial organs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India [2] https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/there-is-a-scientific-reason-why-north-indians-consume-so-much-dairy/168547/ https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/there-is-a-scientific...
tomcam 2y ago
> Why are we not aiming higher? We've been aiming higher explicitly for at 70+ years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart). I've been following it for 50. Artificial hearts were 5 years away since at least 1972 or so when I first learned about this field. The problems (mechanical, surgical, electrical, biological) are endless and it's an astoundingly hostile environment for machinery. We have enough problems getting pacemakers to work without severe problems.
Leynos 2y ago
The Abiocor device always fascinated me. It was developed with long-term implantation in mind. You can read about it here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/abiocor https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... The use of inductive power transfer meant that no transdermal cabling was needed. Sadly, it sounds like for various reasons the dream was not achievable at the time.
- iancmceachern 2y ago
  I know people who worked on that, I've held one in my hand. It was not designed with long term implantation in mind. It was designed to get funding and keep the company alive. The device itself was very crude, not statenof the art at the time, and much of it was hand dip-molded with basic materials. It was a hand made research device that in all reality would have never been expected to be reliable and long lasting. The Bivacor, Heartmate III, these things are in a different class.
iancmceachern 2y ago
The human heart is magical. They've been aiming higher since the 60s and this device is also aiming higher, but this is the stepping stone to that.
enthulhusiastic 2y ago
Because our bodies are already peak technology. I think the 6-million-dollar man thing is a weird goal. Better to regrow, implant, perhaps supplement. Full-on replacement isn’t just a “when” but a “why” and a “how do you expect to do better than evolution”. Titanium is cool! That doesn’t make it better than muscle. Go for a run if you want a better heart
- enthulhusiastic 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dylan604 2y ago
    You can do plenty of other things good for your heart that is much less damaging to the rest of the body. Running is horrible for joints. Just walking at a brisk pace will get the heart pumping. If we want people to get more active, there are much better things to suggest that go for a run. I ran long distance all through school, and refuse to run for running's sake. Playing soccer is the only running I will do, but at least there's a purpose. Walking, swimming, riding a bike, spin class, whatever are much easier suggestions for couch potatoes to start with
    - kiba 2y ago
      Runnng being bad for your joint is apparently a myth.[1] 1. https://longevity.stanford.edu/lifestyle/2023/08/29/is-running-bad-for-your-knees-research-says-no/ https://longevity.stanford.edu/lifestyle/2023/08/29/is-runni...
      - dylan604 2y ago
        tell that to my knees and ankles. the equipment is much better today than it was back when Moses and I were kids, but there are plenty of other ways of getting people active than jumping straight to running.
      - HPsquared 2y ago
bawolff 2y ago
You first must crawl before you can run.
fuzzfactor 2y ago
Listen to what Dr. Cohn says in the clip: https://abc13.com/post/artificial-heart-procedure-performed-houston-offering-new-hope/15100602/ https://abc13.com/post/artificial-heart-procedure-performed-... >Why are we not aiming higher? The final trajectory is not fully known but it looks like they have been preparing for a moon shot from the beginning anyway. You've got to get there from here. The higher the integrity, the more you under-promise and over-deliver :) not my downvote btw, corrective upvote to compensate
_qua 2y ago
That white hose you see coming off the back of it is the drive line which passes out the chest and connects to an external battery. It's not a normal life with one of these in place, a heart transplant would be vastly preferable.
- billfruit 2y ago
  Is it not possible to avoid the cable passing through the chest, by using induction to pass currents between circuits inside and outside the body?

by Jyaif 2y ago

nightfly 2y ago

Because we can barely get a temporary one working now. I'm sure they'd love to be able to make a permanent one, it's just not in the cards yet.

WJW 2y ago

Same reason as why we're not developing starships to go to the other side of the Milky way at the moment: We don't know how to and the leap from "what we can do right now" (ie we struggle to get people to the moon permanently) and "other side of the galaxy" is simply too big.

didgeoridoo 2y ago

This article does a good job of outlining the challenges faced: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230217-the-61-year-long-search-for-artificial-hearts https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20230217-the-61-year-long... From the outside, it looks like a race between figuring out the biocompatibility and power issues for total artificial hearts vs. figuring out the immunological issues for xenografts (pig hearts, mostly). If I had to put money on it, I’d bet that the xenografts win. It doesn’t seem like we’ve made huge strides toward solving the power and durability requirements of total artificial hearts, while immunology advances are happening rapidly. Exciting times, nonetheless.

iancmceachern 2y ago
Totally, I've been following that space closely as well. Amazing times indeed, we are seeing xenografts and artificial organs in use.
TaylorAlexander 2y ago
Would be nice if a pig didn’t have to die to save a human though. This is not something everyone cares about but some people (like me) do care. Hopefully some day we can advance the technology enough with artificial solutions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- didgeoridoo 2y ago
  This is honestly a pretty niche concern. Even most religions that strictly forbid eating pork make an exception if a human’s life is at stake. Your best bet would probably be in advocating for the pigs to be engineered to prevent cortical development, ensuring they don’t become anything beyond twitching, unconscious organ bags. In many ways I think people would find this more disturbing, though.
  - gregoryl 2y ago
    Something like 6% to 10% of the population is vegan, a bit more than niche!
    - HPsquared 2y ago
      That sounds high. Are we talking about India here?
      - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
        > That sounds high. Are we talking about India here? It sounds high even for India. About 40% of Indians are vegetarian, a third if we exclude those who eat eggs [1]. The part of the country where vegetarianism is most rampant, the North, is also the highest dairy-consuming part of the country [2]. In any case, while medical veganism is something to think about, it's not worth prioritising until after we have reliable artificial organs. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarianism_by_country#India [2] https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/there-is-a-scientific-reason-why-north-indians-consume-so-much-dairy/168547/ https://theprint.in/pageturner/excerpt/there-is-a-scientific...

tomcam 2y ago

> Why are we not aiming higher? We've been aiming higher explicitly for at 70+ years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_heart). I've been following it for 50. Artificial hearts were 5 years away since at least 1972 or so when I first learned about this field. The problems (mechanical, surgical, electrical, biological) are endless and it's an astoundingly hostile environment for machinery. We have enough problems getting pacemakers to work without severe problems.

Leynos 2y ago

The Abiocor device always fascinated me. It was developed with long-term implantation in mind. You can read about it here: https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/abiocor https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/... The use of inductive power transfer meant that no transdermal cabling was needed. Sadly, it sounds like for various reasons the dream was not achievable at the time.

iancmceachern 2y ago
I know people who worked on that, I've held one in my hand. It was not designed with long term implantation in mind. It was designed to get funding and keep the company alive. The device itself was very crude, not statenof the art at the time, and much of it was hand dip-molded with basic materials. It was a hand made research device that in all reality would have never been expected to be reliable and long lasting. The Bivacor, Heartmate III, these things are in a different class.

iancmceachern 2y ago

The human heart is magical. They've been aiming higher since the 60s and this device is also aiming higher, but this is the stepping stone to that.

enthulhusiastic 2y ago

Because our bodies are already peak technology. I think the 6-million-dollar man thing is a weird goal. Better to regrow, implant, perhaps supplement. Full-on replacement isn’t just a “when” but a “why” and a “how do you expect to do better than evolution”. Titanium is cool! That doesn’t make it better than muscle. Go for a run if you want a better heart

enthulhusiastic 2y ago
[flagged]
- dylan604 2y ago
  You can do plenty of other things good for your heart that is much less damaging to the rest of the body. Running is horrible for joints. Just walking at a brisk pace will get the heart pumping. If we want people to get more active, there are much better things to suggest that go for a run. I ran long distance all through school, and refuse to run for running's sake. Playing soccer is the only running I will do, but at least there's a purpose. Walking, swimming, riding a bike, spin class, whatever are much easier suggestions for couch potatoes to start with
  - kiba 2y ago
    Runnng being bad for your joint is apparently a myth.[1] 1. https://longevity.stanford.edu/lifestyle/2023/08/29/is-running-bad-for-your-knees-research-says-no/ https://longevity.stanford.edu/lifestyle/2023/08/29/is-runni...
    - dylan604 2y ago
      tell that to my knees and ankles. the equipment is much better today than it was back when Moses and I were kids, but there are plenty of other ways of getting people active than jumping straight to running.
    - HPsquared 2y ago

bawolff 2y ago

You first must crawl before you can run.

fuzzfactor 2y ago

Listen to what Dr. Cohn says in the clip: https://abc13.com/post/artificial-heart-procedure-performed-houston-offering-new-hope/15100602/ https://abc13.com/post/artificial-heart-procedure-performed-... >Why are we not aiming higher? The final trajectory is not fully known but it looks like they have been preparing for a moon shot from the beginning anyway. You've got to get there from here. The higher the integrity, the more you under-promise and over-deliver :) not my downvote btw, corrective upvote to compensate

_qua 2y ago

That white hose you see coming off the back of it is the drive line which passes out the chest and connects to an external battery. It's not a normal life with one of these in place, a heart transplant would be vastly preferable.

billfruit 2y ago
Is it not possible to avoid the cable passing through the chest, by using induction to pass currents between circuits inside and outside the body?