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China can see the West imposing sanctions on Russia and pressuring other countries to join with secondary sanctions.

qwytw 2y ago
And they missed the West imposing sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Yugoslavia, South Africa and many other countries in the past? Russia's position in the global economy is radically different to that of China's. Especially from the perspective of the US, which lost almost nothing by imposing sanctions on Russia (the brunt of the costs was borne by Europe), arguably it actually benefited from them. In China's case it would be very different. Of course if US and its allies managed to somehow economically untangle themselves from China well. That would depend. In any case.. If China is really concerned with this they could just start by leaving Taiwan alone, that would significantly reduce any tension.
- protomolecule 2y ago
  "And they missed the West imposing sanctions" The scale is unprecedented. "If China is really concerned with this they could just start by leaving Taiwan alone" Yeah, "if you are really concerned with the gun pointed at your head -- do as we say." China prefers doing something about the gun itself.
  - qwytw 2y ago
    > The scale is unprecedented. Relative to the geopolitically important of the target country? Yes. Looking at the scale of the sanctions themselves? Hardly. I still think the other factors I listed are more important. > "if you are really concerned with the gun pointed at your head -- do as we say." No, it's if you randomly make unprovoked threats to neighboring expects consequences and general behave in an aggressive way (politically and economically) expect that other countries will react. China is the one pointing the gun for the most part.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      >Looking at the scale of the sanctions themselves? Hardly. Apparently China has different opinion. >China is the one pointing the gun for the most part. PRC and ROC have the unfinished civil war between them.
      - qwytw 2y ago
        > PRC and ROC have the unfinished civil war between them. Because the PRC doesn't want to finish it, peacefully anyway... At this point it's 90-95% one-sided. Who do you think isn't allowing Taiwan/ROC to renounce its "claim" to the rest of China by constantly threatening to invade it even if they start seriously considering that option seriously?
        protomolecule 2y ago
        Seriously seriously, how People's Republic Of China's claim on Republic of China doesn't allow ROC to renounce their's claim on PRC? And why it isn't vise-verse?
        qwytw 2y ago
        Is this sarcasm? Only way the ROC could do that is by declaring that the ROC no longer exists and that they are now an independent state of Taiwan. Even if they didn't frame it exactly that way from PRC's perspective any attempt by the ROC to renounce its claim on the rest of China would be the equivalent of them declaring independence. > And why it isn't vise-verse? You mean why ROC/Taiwan isn't threatening to invade the mainland if the PRC changes its policy of considering Taiwan to be an inalienable part of China? It's hard to tell..
        protomolecule 2y ago
        Not at all.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
- throw310822 2y ago
  Taiwan? While it is strategic (and strategic for both sides) Taiwan is an excuse. The problem that the US has with China is that it doesn't want it to acquire technological supremacy or to become a superpower. It doesn't matter if China is good or bad, what matters is that the US controlled most of the world in the past 35 years (and half of it before that) and it doesn't want this situation to end. All the rest is details and pretexts.
  - qwytw 2y ago
    > All the rest is details and pretexts. Not really. The details matter much more, in fact the overall policy in the US in recent years has been almost primarily shaped by the sum of those details. Look at EU/US vs Russia, overall nobody had any significant issues in maintaining peaceful and mutually beneficial economic ties with it until it started behaving in an ultra-imperialist and unpredictable manner. Also US has time on its side. Long-term there is no need to be over aggressive towards China, US is in a much better position demographically. > US controlled Well... define control. I don't see how is that true unless we use an extremely lose definition of the word.
    - protomolecule 2y ago
      >until it started behaving in an ultra-imperialist and unpredictable manner. That's a good description of American actions in 2014 when they said 'fuck the EU'[0] and 'mid-wifed' the coup in Ukraine. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
      - qwytw 2y ago
        So you're saying that Russia has some inherent, indisputable & permanent claim over all theory territory of every single country that surrounds it? And attempt by the people living in those regions to do anything about that is an unprovoked and direct attack on Russia... (just like Germany in the 30s)
        2y ago

And they missed the West imposing sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Yugoslavia, South Africa and many other countries in the past? Russia's position in the global economy is radically different to that of China's. Especially from the perspective of the US, which lost almost nothing by imposing sanctions on Russia (the brunt of the costs was borne by Europe), arguably it actually benefited from them. In China's case it would be very different. Of course if US and its allies managed to somehow economically untangle themselves from China well. That would depend. In any case.. If China is really concerned with this they could just start by leaving Taiwan alone, that would significantly reduce any tension.

protomolecule 2y ago
"And they missed the West imposing sanctions" The scale is unprecedented. "If China is really concerned with this they could just start by leaving Taiwan alone" Yeah, "if you are really concerned with the gun pointed at your head -- do as we say." China prefers doing something about the gun itself.
- qwytw 2y ago
  > The scale is unprecedented. Relative to the geopolitically important of the target country? Yes. Looking at the scale of the sanctions themselves? Hardly. I still think the other factors I listed are more important. > "if you are really concerned with the gun pointed at your head -- do as we say." No, it's if you randomly make unprovoked threats to neighboring expects consequences and general behave in an aggressive way (politically and economically) expect that other countries will react. China is the one pointing the gun for the most part.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    >Looking at the scale of the sanctions themselves? Hardly. Apparently China has different opinion. >China is the one pointing the gun for the most part. PRC and ROC have the unfinished civil war between them.
    - qwytw 2y ago
      > PRC and ROC have the unfinished civil war between them. Because the PRC doesn't want to finish it, peacefully anyway... At this point it's 90-95% one-sided. Who do you think isn't allowing Taiwan/ROC to renounce its "claim" to the rest of China by constantly threatening to invade it even if they start seriously considering that option seriously?
      - protomolecule 2y ago
        Seriously seriously, how People's Republic Of China's claim on Republic of China doesn't allow ROC to renounce their's claim on PRC? And why it isn't vise-verse?
        qwytw 2y ago
        Is this sarcasm? Only way the ROC could do that is by declaring that the ROC no longer exists and that they are now an independent state of Taiwan. Even if they didn't frame it exactly that way from PRC's perspective any attempt by the ROC to renounce its claim on the rest of China would be the equivalent of them declaring independence. > And why it isn't vise-verse? You mean why ROC/Taiwan isn't threatening to invade the mainland if the PRC changes its policy of considering Taiwan to be an inalienable part of China? It's hard to tell..
        protomolecule 2y ago
        Not at all.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
throw310822 2y ago
Taiwan? While it is strategic (and strategic for both sides) Taiwan is an excuse. The problem that the US has with China is that it doesn't want it to acquire technological supremacy or to become a superpower. It doesn't matter if China is good or bad, what matters is that the US controlled most of the world in the past 35 years (and half of it before that) and it doesn't want this situation to end. All the rest is details and pretexts.
- qwytw 2y ago
  > All the rest is details and pretexts. Not really. The details matter much more, in fact the overall policy in the US in recent years has been almost primarily shaped by the sum of those details. Look at EU/US vs Russia, overall nobody had any significant issues in maintaining peaceful and mutually beneficial economic ties with it until it started behaving in an ultra-imperialist and unpredictable manner. Also US has time on its side. Long-term there is no need to be over aggressive towards China, US is in a much better position demographically. > US controlled Well... define control. I don't see how is that true unless we use an extremely lose definition of the word.
  - protomolecule 2y ago
    >until it started behaving in an ultra-imperialist and unpredictable manner. That's a good description of American actions in 2014 when they said 'fuck the EU'[0] and 'mid-wifed' the coup in Ukraine. [0] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
    - qwytw 2y ago
      So you're saying that Russia has some inherent, indisputable & permanent claim over all theory territory of every single country that surrounds it? And attempt by the people living in those regions to do anything about that is an unprovoked and direct attack on Russia... (just like Germany in the 30s)
      - 2y ago