6 ms·

Sig Sauer guns hanging on soldiers' hips may be firing without trigger pull

32 points by rntn 2y ago

mirekrusin 2y ago
Always put first bullet blank?
- fullspectrumdev 2y ago
  A blank will still do a shitload of damage up close. Not as much as a live round, but depending on how you are carrying it’s gonna mess you up.
- amelius 2y ago
  And get shot by the second?
- tokai 2y ago
  A blank wont rack the slide without a blank-firing adapter.
- sparrish 2y ago
  I wouldn't trust my life to my ability to get 2 shots off before the bad guy got 1 shot off. Other pistols do not have this problem, just don't carry a Sig P320. There are lots of other great options for duty guns. Walther PDP would be my choice.
- deschutes 2y ago
  It's a creative thought but this kind of thinking is in direct contradiction to the widely accepted principles of safe firearm handling. Trying to mitigate the damage of negligent discharges is the wrong problem to solve. In this case it sounds like the negligence may belong to the manufacturer in which case these weapons should be scrapped.
- mmh0000 2y ago
  "Blanks" are still quite deadly, one notable event: On October 12, 1984, the cast and crew of Cover Up were filming the seventh episode of the series, "Golden Opportunity", on Stage 18 of the 20th Century Fox lot. One of the scenes filmed that day called for Hexum's character to load cartridges into a .44 Magnum handgun, so he was provided with a functional gun and blanks. When the scene did not play as the director wanted it to in the master shot, there was a delay in filming. Hexum became restless and impatient during the delay and began playing around to lighten the mood. He had unloaded all but one (blank) round, spun it, and—simulating Russian roulette—he put the revolver to his right temple and pulled the trigger, unaware of the danger.[12] The explosive effect of the muzzle blast caused enough blunt force trauma to fracture a quarter-sized piece of his skull and propel this into his brain, causing massive hemorrhaging.[6][13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Also, Brandon Lee's death while filming The Crow (1994): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_(1994_film)#Brandon_Lee's_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_(1994_film)#Brandon_L... :(
jasonpeacock 2y ago
A gun accidentally firing implies that it’s in condition 1 at least - a round chambered and hammer cocked. Is that standard policy for everyday carry? I’d expect at least condition 2 - uncocked.
- stackskipton 2y ago
  If it's being carried for self-defense purposes, yes. EDIT: Most modern pistols are operated this way without issues, and they don't go off without trigger being pulled.
- luu 2y ago
  Unlike other striker-fired guns, the P320 is "effectively fully cocked at rest", since its striker is under constant spring pressure, which is released when the trigger is pulled. Most such guns, including the P320's military variant, have external safeties (like thumb safeties), which the P320's civilian variant lacks. According to gunsmith James Tertin, this is a rare and "uniquely dangerous" configuration (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320). MCO 5500.6H (Arming of Law Enforcement and Security Personnel) requires Condition 1, which is magazine inserted, round in chamber, slide forward, safety on ... After reviewing the security camera video footage, the mishap investigator concluded that P1 did not mishandle the weapon at anytime while on duty at Gate 1 prior to the weapon discharging. From the evidence and statements from the persons involved, it is apparent that the weapon fired while on safe and secured in the holster. (from https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463aa80d/marine-corps-2023-02-14.pdf https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463a..., linked to by the article)
  - smegsicle 2y ago
    most striker fired pistols follow glock's lead in using not a manual thumb safety but instead a trigger safety, which prevents the trigger from being pulled by something not shaped roughly like a finger the us military version of the p320 does have a thumb safety, and the claim is that they are going off without trigger pressure anyway, so who knows what the issue is
- 2y ago
stackskipton 2y ago
Yep, this has been a known issue with P320. There has been reports from police agencies as well. https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2022-12-02/lawsuit-alleges-20-new-injuries-from-sig-sauer-p320-pistol-plaintiffs-claim-fires-without-trigger-pull https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2022-12-02/lawsuit-alleges-20-n... https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/milwaukee/news/2022/10/31/milwaukee-police-to-replace-all-officer-weapons-following-unexpected-discharges- https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/milwaukee/news/2022/10/31/milwa... Sig Sauer keeps claiming that it's weapon mishandling despite evidence showing it going off in the holster.
- jayde2767 2y ago
  Any chance there are misfires due to changing the main spring? I have found Sig's can be set up with ultra sensitive (and light) triggers if you change the springs out.
- 404mm 2y ago
  It goes way back.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320#Drop_firing_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320#Drop_firing_pro...
henvic 2y ago
Taurus had similar issues in the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZuoRrBa1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZuoRrBa1M This is insane.
- silisili 2y ago
  While both unsafe, I think the big difference here is that Taurus guns are cheap and not exactly known for reliability. Sig on the other hand is supposed to be the high price, engineered among the best option, with numerous expansive contracts.
justinclift 2y ago
Wonder if it's a static electricity problem, somehow generating a spark in exactly the wrong place? :(
- sparrish 2y ago
  Modern cartridges are pretty well shielded from static electricity. I can't imagine a static spark could get inside the chamber AND inside the cartridge.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    No worries. Was just thinking that from this description, which sounds to me like a static electricity problem: ... another soldier, on his way to the refrigerator, tried to squeeze past him. That’s when their gun holsters made contact. “All I remember was the clanking” of the two holsters, the sergeant would later tell an Army investigator, according to a military report, “and [the] gun shot.” As for "how?", I clearly have no idea. :)
_alex_ 2y ago
The military version of the P320 (M18) has a manual safety. Not clear from the article whether or not it was engaged. That said, I’ve always thought it is bonkers that the P320 doesn’t have a trigger safety.
- mrandish 2y ago
  > Not clear from the article whether or not it was engaged. Per TFA "Investigators reviewed surveillance footage and determined that the security guard did not mishandle the weapon, and that it fired despite the gun’s safety being in place." I'm no expert on guns and I also thought it strange when I first heard that some hand guns are intentionally made with no safety mechanism. Then my brother (who is an expert competitive shooter, instructor and range safety officer) explained the reasoning to me. IIRC, it was basically that despite all rules and training to the contrary, some people continue to occasionally handle guns in an unsafe manner with the (wildly incorrect) justification "it's okay, the safety's on." Since safety mechanisms must be quick to deactivate and it's not always easy to visually determine the safety's state, such flawed logic substantially reduces the benefit of having a safety in the first place. Whereas the correct safety posture is to always treat any hand gun as potentially loaded and ready to fire, regardless of belief the safety mechanism is active. Apparently, with some people, training and safety protocols can't count counter human psychology, rendering the existence of a safety mechanism as another source of accidental error. Once I thought about it, I can see how eliminating any possibility of mistaken belief in a safety mechanism being active might be preferred. Of course, this perspective assumes that weapons don't fire themselves accidentally, as reported here. (But, based on this article, apparently having a safety mechanism engaged didn't prevent accidental firing in these rare scenarios anyway.)
  - rspoerri 2y ago
    A very stupid reason not to add safety. We woudnt need safety belts with the same reasoning. Stupid people gonna do stupid things, with or without safety. You might stumble, hook onto something, loose grip of a weapon and pull the trigger accidentially. A safety is to prevent accidential triggering, not to prevent stupidity. For that you need laws that prohibit carrying loaded weapons without license and strict requirements and training for the ones who get such a permission. Our police is training in virtual reality. I know of a case where an officer did not take the safety rules seriously in the vr-training who got reviewed and put on leave for a few days for his behaviour.
GiorgioG 2y ago
[flagged]
- Physkal 2y ago
  It's still technology based. And a break from AI articles is appealing.
  - rolph 2y ago
    its also related to tech work, if your employer uses a threat model that includes immediately hostile physical presence, such as a data center servicing advanced imaging and early warning systems, being invaded by the enemy.
tyingq 2y ago
They downplayed a different (though kind of related) problem with the same model before, then eventually offered a free "voluntary upgrade". https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/investigates/sig-sauer-p320-drop-fire/ https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/investigates/sig-sau...
- meristohm 2y ago
  ...while maintaining that the non-upgraded model is still safe.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
indigo0086 2y ago
Other than a couple police officers how widespread is this issue?

32 points by rntn 2y ago

mirekrusin 2y ago

Always put first bullet blank?

fullspectrumdev 2y ago
A blank will still do a shitload of damage up close. Not as much as a live round, but depending on how you are carrying it’s gonna mess you up.
amelius 2y ago
And get shot by the second?
tokai 2y ago
A blank wont rack the slide without a blank-firing adapter.
sparrish 2y ago
I wouldn't trust my life to my ability to get 2 shots off before the bad guy got 1 shot off. Other pistols do not have this problem, just don't carry a Sig P320. There are lots of other great options for duty guns. Walther PDP would be my choice.
deschutes 2y ago
It's a creative thought but this kind of thinking is in direct contradiction to the widely accepted principles of safe firearm handling. Trying to mitigate the damage of negligent discharges is the wrong problem to solve. In this case it sounds like the negligence may belong to the manufacturer in which case these weapons should be scrapped.
mmh0000 2y ago
"Blanks" are still quite deadly, one notable event: On October 12, 1984, the cast and crew of Cover Up were filming the seventh episode of the series, "Golden Opportunity", on Stage 18 of the 20th Century Fox lot. One of the scenes filmed that day called for Hexum's character to load cartridges into a .44 Magnum handgun, so he was provided with a functional gun and blanks. When the scene did not play as the director wanted it to in the master shot, there was a delay in filming. Hexum became restless and impatient during the delay and began playing around to lighten the mood. He had unloaded all but one (blank) round, spun it, and—simulating Russian roulette—he put the revolver to his right temple and pulled the trigger, unaware of the danger.[12] The explosive effect of the muzzle blast caused enough blunt force trauma to fracture a quarter-sized piece of his skull and propel this into his brain, causing massive hemorrhaging.[6][13] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jon-Erik_Hexum
- justinclift 2y ago
  Also, Brandon Lee's death while filming The Crow (1994): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_(1994_film)#Brandon_Lee's_death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Crow_(1994_film)#Brandon_L... :(

jasonpeacock 2y ago

A gun accidentally firing implies that it’s in condition 1 at least - a round chambered and hammer cocked. Is that standard policy for everyday carry? I’d expect at least condition 2 - uncocked.

stackskipton 2y ago
If it's being carried for self-defense purposes, yes. EDIT: Most modern pistols are operated this way without issues, and they don't go off without trigger being pulled.
luu 2y ago
Unlike other striker-fired guns, the P320 is "effectively fully cocked at rest", since its striker is under constant spring pressure, which is released when the trigger is pulled. Most such guns, including the P320's military variant, have external safeties (like thumb safeties), which the P320's civilian variant lacks. According to gunsmith James Tertin, this is a rare and "uniquely dangerous" configuration (from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320). MCO 5500.6H (Arming of Law Enforcement and Security Personnel) requires Condition 1, which is magazine inserted, round in chamber, slide forward, safety on ... After reviewing the security camera video footage, the mishap investigator concluded that P1 did not mishandle the weapon at anytime while on duty at Gate 1 prior to the weapon discharging. From the evidence and statements from the persons involved, it is apparent that the weapon fired while on safe and secured in the holster. (from https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463aa80d/marine-corps-2023-02-14.pdf https://npr.brightspotcdn.com/86/f5/d87374f8497a81db30e2463a..., linked to by the article)
- smegsicle 2y ago
  most striker fired pistols follow glock's lead in using not a manual thumb safety but instead a trigger safety, which prevents the trigger from being pulled by something not shaped roughly like a finger the us military version of the p320 does have a thumb safety, and the claim is that they are going off without trigger pressure anyway, so who knows what the issue is
2y ago

stackskipton 2y ago

Yep, this has been a known issue with P320. There has been reports from police agencies as well. https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2022-12-02/lawsuit-alleges-20-new-injuries-from-sig-sauer-p320-pistol-plaintiffs-claim-fires-without-trigger-pull https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2022-12-02/lawsuit-alleges-20-n... https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/milwaukee/news/2022/10/31/milwaukee-police-to-replace-all-officer-weapons-following-unexpected-discharges- https://spectrumnews1.com/wi/milwaukee/news/2022/10/31/milwa... Sig Sauer keeps claiming that it's weapon mishandling despite evidence showing it going off in the holster.

jayde2767 2y ago
Any chance there are misfires due to changing the main spring? I have found Sig's can be set up with ultra sensitive (and light) triggers if you change the springs out.
404mm 2y ago
It goes way back.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320#Drop_firing_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIG_Sauer_P320#Drop_firing_pro...

henvic 2y ago

Taurus had similar issues in the past: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZuoRrBa1M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZuoRrBa1M This is insane.

silisili 2y ago
While both unsafe, I think the big difference here is that Taurus guns are cheap and not exactly known for reliability. Sig on the other hand is supposed to be the high price, engineered among the best option, with numerous expansive contracts.

justinclift 2y ago

Wonder if it's a static electricity problem, somehow generating a spark in exactly the wrong place? :(

sparrish 2y ago
Modern cartridges are pretty well shielded from static electricity. I can't imagine a static spark could get inside the chamber AND inside the cartridge.
- justinclift 2y ago
  No worries. Was just thinking that from this description, which sounds to me like a static electricity problem: ... another soldier, on his way to the refrigerator, tried to squeeze past him. That’s when their gun holsters made contact. “All I remember was the clanking” of the two holsters, the sergeant would later tell an Army investigator, according to a military report, “and [the] gun shot.” As for "how?", I clearly have no idea. :)

_alex_ 2y ago

The military version of the P320 (M18) has a manual safety. Not clear from the article whether or not it was engaged. That said, I’ve always thought it is bonkers that the P320 doesn’t have a trigger safety.

mrandish 2y ago
> Not clear from the article whether or not it was engaged. Per TFA "Investigators reviewed surveillance footage and determined that the security guard did not mishandle the weapon, and that it fired despite the gun’s safety being in place." I'm no expert on guns and I also thought it strange when I first heard that some hand guns are intentionally made with no safety mechanism. Then my brother (who is an expert competitive shooter, instructor and range safety officer) explained the reasoning to me. IIRC, it was basically that despite all rules and training to the contrary, some people continue to occasionally handle guns in an unsafe manner with the (wildly incorrect) justification "it's okay, the safety's on." Since safety mechanisms must be quick to deactivate and it's not always easy to visually determine the safety's state, such flawed logic substantially reduces the benefit of having a safety in the first place. Whereas the correct safety posture is to always treat any hand gun as potentially loaded and ready to fire, regardless of belief the safety mechanism is active. Apparently, with some people, training and safety protocols can't count counter human psychology, rendering the existence of a safety mechanism as another source of accidental error. Once I thought about it, I can see how eliminating any possibility of mistaken belief in a safety mechanism being active might be preferred. Of course, this perspective assumes that weapons don't fire themselves accidentally, as reported here. (But, based on this article, apparently having a safety mechanism engaged didn't prevent accidental firing in these rare scenarios anyway.)
- rspoerri 2y ago
  A very stupid reason not to add safety. We woudnt need safety belts with the same reasoning. Stupid people gonna do stupid things, with or without safety. You might stumble, hook onto something, loose grip of a weapon and pull the trigger accidentially. A safety is to prevent accidential triggering, not to prevent stupidity. For that you need laws that prohibit carrying loaded weapons without license and strict requirements and training for the ones who get such a permission. Our police is training in virtual reality. I know of a case where an officer did not take the safety rules seriously in the vr-training who got reviewed and put on leave for a few days for his behaviour.

GiorgioG 2y ago

[flagged]

Physkal 2y ago
It's still technology based. And a break from AI articles is appealing.
- rolph 2y ago
  its also related to tech work, if your employer uses a threat model that includes immediately hostile physical presence, such as a data center servicing advanced imaging and early warning systems, being invaded by the enemy.

tyingq 2y ago

They downplayed a different (though kind of related) problem with the same model before, then eventually offered a free "voluntary upgrade". https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/investigates/sig-sauer-p320-drop-fire/ https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/investigates/sig-sau...

meristohm 2y ago
...while maintaining that the non-upgraded model is still safe.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

indigo0086 2y ago

Other than a couple police officers how widespread is this issue?