5 ms·

Objective-C is like Jimi Hendrix (2014)

34 points by mpweiher 2y ago

Ezhik 2y ago
Objective-C is the anti-TypeScript. I don't mean this as an insult.
- actionfromafar 2y ago
  … to either?
melvinroest 2y ago
Having both worked with Objective-C and with Pharo (a Smalltalk descendant), I would argue that the introspection, for example, is a Smalltalk influence. Of course, as some know Objective-C is inspired by Smalltalk, among other languages
ryukoposting 2y ago
Comparing Jimi Hendrix to Objective-C is like comparing Ken Thompson to a guitar. Musician, instrument. Painter, brushes. Besides, as far as I know, Objective-C only ever gained traction within the very narrow realm of MacOS and iOS application development, and has since been mostly supplanted by Swift in both of those use cases. That's hardly comparable to the enduring, cross-cultural influence of Hendrix. If we're making weird anthropomorphic analogies, I'd argue Objective-C is more like Sleep, People Under the Stairs, or maybe The Replacements. Enormously important within the scope of their own subculture.
- karmakaze 2y ago
  Analogies aside, Objective-C gave rise to NeXT and Lotus Improv on the NeXT which were the greatest things. I'm not particularly attached to the language but wonder why we don't have nice things like those anymore.
  - jhbadger 2y ago
    Even on MacOS. I was playing with XCode recently (I don't normally do Mac development as such even though I use Macs as my primary computers) and was disappointed to see that they've gotten rid of Interface Builder as far as I can tell, as that was one of the greatest things modern MacOS inherited from NextStep.
    - fzzzy 2y ago
      Interface Builder has just been integrated into Xcode for a very long time now.
      - jhbadger 2y ago
        I don't claim to be an expert on Xcode but when I was playing with Xcode 15 the UI editor seemed nothing like Interface Builder -- not only from NextStep but even from earlier versions of Xcode.
        robinsonrc 2y ago
        You may have been working in a SwiftUI project which does things differently from the older IB ways
      - karmakaze 2y ago
        Interface Builder was the coolest thing, especially its struts-n-springs-constraints. Xcode is in contrast among the worst visual builder I've used, everything feels so tedious. (AutoLayout is the real thing and Xcode's UI feels 2nd class.) Did they also get rid of those connections between code and widgets? That would make sense as it's such a lone mechanism to be foreign to most now.
        galad87 2y ago
        Struts-n-springs-constraints and outlets are still available.
      - 2y ago
- chipdart 2y ago
  > Besides, as far as I know, Objective-C only ever gained traction within the very narrow realm of MacOS and iOS application development, and has since been mostly supplanted by Swift in both of those use cases. I would take a step further and point out that Objective-C was forced upon developers by Apple as the official tech stack to develop software targeting macOS and iOS. If that was not the case, I seriously doubt it would have gained any traction at all.
  - F3nd0 2y ago
    Isn't that how it usually works with any given platform? Developing most of it with a given toolset which is then regarded as 'natural' or 'official', while developing for it with other tools becomes less viable or desirable due to lack of work and official support?
  - spacemadness 2y ago
    The way some of my colleagues gush about objC, I wonder. I honestly can’t stand objC. This is coming from someone who coded in C for many years. Swift is such a huge improvement.
  - mpweiher 2y ago
    > Objective-C was forced upon developers by Apple That turns out not to be the case. In fact Apple initially pointed developers at everything but Objective-C. 1. Carbon ("all life forms are based on Carbon") 2. Java. Remember all the sample code in Java? 3. "Modern syntax". All these quickly fell to the wayside, as people overcame their mostly superficial angst ("uuuh, square brackets and keywords, how will I ever survive") and saw that Objective-C delivers the goods.
- heresie-dabord 2y ago
  > comparing Y to X is like comparing... The OP's simile is unintelligible and unconstructive. Now whether we can determine just how unintelligible and unconstructive it is by offering Yet Another Faulty Comparison is left as an exercise for the reader. ^_^
wiseowise 2y ago
[flagged]
Demiurge 2y ago
I never hear people talk about ObjC in same breath as they talk about Simula, Smalltalk. There was also Object Pascal. I think these predate Objective C, and changed the game before Objective C. So I think it makes Objective C more of Michael Angelo Batio.
cmsonger 2y ago
I'm not sure about the title, which just seems weird. But I think the broad point in the short post is right. Objective-C may look horrible today, but compared to the other choices at the time of its debut; it looked pretty damned good and even better because it was what NeXT was attaching its UI tooling to -- and compared to what was around at the time InterfaceBuilder was unreal good.
coliveira 2y ago
Objective-C is a great language that introduced automatic reference counting among other things. Unfortunately it is tied to C, and modern safety measures prevent developers from using C in application code. That's why Apple forced developers to use Swift, which has little new to offer other than being tied to Apple frameworks.
- mananaysiempre 2y ago
  I don’t think that’s really fair to Swift. It has some really interesting things to say about devirtualization, compiling generics, and even memory management. It’s not necessarily a better language than Objective-C for every task, but it’s certainly very different.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  It might have introduced some to reference counting, but that is all. The algorithm is as old as Lisp, and the "automatic" part is a well known compiler optimization pass, when reference counting is used for automatic memory management.
- frizlab 2y ago
  > other than being tied to Apple frameworks Swift is not tied to Apple frameworks. At all. It is fully compatible with them because of its full ObjC compatibility, but that’s it.
teresasovinski 2y ago
[dead]
thought_alarm 2y ago
I started learning Obj-C and AppKit in the mid 2000s. During that process I had a moment of zen when I realized that everything I had learned and done with C++ and COM in the late 90s was completely wrong.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

34 points by mpweiher 2y ago

Ezhik 2y ago

Objective-C is the anti-TypeScript. I don't mean this as an insult.

actionfromafar 2y ago
… to either?

melvinroest 2y ago

Having both worked with Objective-C and with Pharo (a Smalltalk descendant), I would argue that the introspection, for example, is a Smalltalk influence. Of course, as some know Objective-C is inspired by Smalltalk, among other languages

ryukoposting 2y ago

Comparing Jimi Hendrix to Objective-C is like comparing Ken Thompson to a guitar. Musician, instrument. Painter, brushes. Besides, as far as I know, Objective-C only ever gained traction within the very narrow realm of MacOS and iOS application development, and has since been mostly supplanted by Swift in both of those use cases. That's hardly comparable to the enduring, cross-cultural influence of Hendrix. If we're making weird anthropomorphic analogies, I'd argue Objective-C is more like Sleep, People Under the Stairs, or maybe The Replacements. Enormously important within the scope of their own subculture.

karmakaze 2y ago
Analogies aside, Objective-C gave rise to NeXT and Lotus Improv on the NeXT which were the greatest things. I'm not particularly attached to the language but wonder why we don't have nice things like those anymore.
- jhbadger 2y ago
  Even on MacOS. I was playing with XCode recently (I don't normally do Mac development as such even though I use Macs as my primary computers) and was disappointed to see that they've gotten rid of Interface Builder as far as I can tell, as that was one of the greatest things modern MacOS inherited from NextStep.
  - fzzzy 2y ago
    Interface Builder has just been integrated into Xcode for a very long time now.
    - jhbadger 2y ago
      I don't claim to be an expert on Xcode but when I was playing with Xcode 15 the UI editor seemed nothing like Interface Builder -- not only from NextStep but even from earlier versions of Xcode.
      - robinsonrc 2y ago
        You may have been working in a SwiftUI project which does things differently from the older IB ways
    - karmakaze 2y ago
      Interface Builder was the coolest thing, especially its struts-n-springs-constraints. Xcode is in contrast among the worst visual builder I've used, everything feels so tedious. (AutoLayout is the real thing and Xcode's UI feels 2nd class.) Did they also get rid of those connections between code and widgets? That would make sense as it's such a lone mechanism to be foreign to most now.
      - galad87 2y ago
        Struts-n-springs-constraints and outlets are still available.
    - 2y ago
chipdart 2y ago
> Besides, as far as I know, Objective-C only ever gained traction within the very narrow realm of MacOS and iOS application development, and has since been mostly supplanted by Swift in both of those use cases. I would take a step further and point out that Objective-C was forced upon developers by Apple as the official tech stack to develop software targeting macOS and iOS. If that was not the case, I seriously doubt it would have gained any traction at all.
- F3nd0 2y ago
  Isn't that how it usually works with any given platform? Developing most of it with a given toolset which is then regarded as 'natural' or 'official', while developing for it with other tools becomes less viable or desirable due to lack of work and official support?
- spacemadness 2y ago
  The way some of my colleagues gush about objC, I wonder. I honestly can’t stand objC. This is coming from someone who coded in C for many years. Swift is such a huge improvement.
- mpweiher 2y ago
  > Objective-C was forced upon developers by Apple That turns out not to be the case. In fact Apple initially pointed developers at everything but Objective-C. 1. Carbon ("all life forms are based on Carbon") 2. Java. Remember all the sample code in Java? 3. "Modern syntax". All these quickly fell to the wayside, as people overcame their mostly superficial angst ("uuuh, square brackets and keywords, how will I ever survive") and saw that Objective-C delivers the goods.
heresie-dabord 2y ago
> comparing Y to X is like comparing... The OP's simile is unintelligible and unconstructive. Now whether we can determine just how unintelligible and unconstructive it is by offering Yet Another Faulty Comparison is left as an exercise for the reader. ^_^

wiseowise 2y ago

[flagged]

Demiurge 2y ago

I never hear people talk about ObjC in same breath as they talk about Simula, Smalltalk. There was also Object Pascal. I think these predate Objective C, and changed the game before Objective C. So I think it makes Objective C more of Michael Angelo Batio.

cmsonger 2y ago

I'm not sure about the title, which just seems weird. But I think the broad point in the short post is right. Objective-C may look horrible today, but compared to the other choices at the time of its debut; it looked pretty damned good and even better because it was what NeXT was attaching its UI tooling to -- and compared to what was around at the time InterfaceBuilder was unreal good.

coliveira 2y ago

Objective-C is a great language that introduced automatic reference counting among other things. Unfortunately it is tied to C, and modern safety measures prevent developers from using C in application code. That's why Apple forced developers to use Swift, which has little new to offer other than being tied to Apple frameworks.

mananaysiempre 2y ago
I don’t think that’s really fair to Swift. It has some really interesting things to say about devirtualization, compiling generics, and even memory management. It’s not necessarily a better language than Objective-C for every task, but it’s certainly very different.
pjmlp 2y ago
It might have introduced some to reference counting, but that is all. The algorithm is as old as Lisp, and the "automatic" part is a well known compiler optimization pass, when reference counting is used for automatic memory management.
frizlab 2y ago
> other than being tied to Apple frameworks Swift is not tied to Apple frameworks. At all. It is fully compatible with them because of its full ObjC compatibility, but that’s it.

teresasovinski 2y ago

[dead]

thought_alarm 2y ago

I started learning Obj-C and AppKit in the mid 2000s. During that process I had a moment of zen when I realized that everything I had learned and done with C++ and COM in the late 90s was completely wrong.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]