4 ms·

AAPL's profit is roughly equivalent to the GDP of Slovakia.

by khuey 2y ago

OKRainbowKid 2y ago
That's great for apple shareholders and citizens of Ireland indirectly benefitting from the miniscule amount of tax Apple pays here!
toomuchtodo 2y ago
I understand you were rebutting OPs point that not every tech company is a capital furnace, but when framed in this manner, this sounds like something to be solved, not something to be proud of. That’s the difference between the EU and the US, and there is a strong case to be made that life is better in the EU when observing majorities. Who is benefiting from Apple’s profits being the size of a small country’s GDP? Not most people, therefore, why would this be optimized for?
- maxerickson 2y ago
  Apple makes a lot of profit because their products provide a lot of value. Do you think that if you compare the profit that Apple makes to the value that that users get that Apple has the larger share of it? To a disturbing degree?
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    Certainly, if a company’s profits are the size of a small country’s GDP, I find that disturbing regardless of the value they’re delivering. Value is the experience and consumer excess, profits are fiat. Could that same value be delivered with compressed profits leading to greater consumer excess? I believe so. Not all profits are earned, some are inherent once an org achieves a certain maturity or industry position. Visa and Mastercard skimming a non insignificant amount off of US GDP, for example. Is that value? https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/LAZONICK_William_Profits-without-Prosperity-20140406.pdf https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/LAZONICK_Willia... (“Profits Without Prosperity: How Stock Buybacks Manipulate the Market, and Leave Most Americans Worse Off”)
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      You didn't answer the first question about whether you think consumers or Apple have the larger share.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        I thought my comment was clear, I will attempt to be more explicit: I am of the opinion that Apple’s profits are excessive, regardless of the consumer value delivered. I respect that others may have opposing views that profits should have no limits as long as value is delivered.
        bluecalm 2y ago
        Well if EU politicians think Apple's profits are excessive what about introducing laws to foster some competition? You can complain about other countries running circles around you all you want but at the end of the day if you can't make a phone, piece of software or a CPU you will be at the mercy of those who can. The way to reduce "excessive profits" is to make it easier to start businesses which could provide the "overpriced" goods and services cheaper.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Easier to reduce their size with regulation versus believing a free market that isn’t truly free will suddenly whisk competition into the space. This is why China gives their domestic companies “unfair” advantages, because the free market is an illusion. It’s only unfair if you believe there is a “free market” or the market is fair, which it is not. It is easy to forget that the economic system of fiat and capital is a shared delusion, agreed upon rules that can change when needed. The intent is to encourage outcomes, not to be the primary function.
        bluecalm 2y ago
        Whatever your views on free market if you want goods cheaper someone needs to make them cheaper. Splitting up Apple won't result in that. You still need someone else to make phones.
  - layer8 2y ago
    > Apple makes a lot of profit because their products provide a lot of value. That is a non-sequitur.
- jonnybgood 2y ago
  > Who is benefiting from Apple’s profits being the size of a small country’s GDP? Not most people, therefore, why would this be optimized for? Off the top of my head, probably the millions of people who have a pension through one of Apple’s institutional investors like CalPERS. The effects of Apple’s profitability goes far and wide.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    These numbers are always trotted out like these people have a material majority investment in the equities market (“won’t someone think of the teacher pension”), when per the Federal Reserve, the top 10% of Americans by wealth hold 93% of US equities. This doesn’t entirely discount that CalPERS holds almost 40M shares (~$8.7B) of Apple (its top holding), just that them doing so is not reason enough to be more judicious about governing corporate profits. Still profits, but less. Those profits have to come from somewhere. (CalPERS has $502.9B AUM ending June 2024, making APPL ~1.72% of their total assets) https://www.calpers.ca.gov/docs/forms-publications/acfr-2023.pdf https://www.calpers.ca.gov/docs/forms-publications/acfr-2023... (page 115) https://calpers.ca.gov/page/newsroom/calpers-news/2024/calpers-preliminary-investment-return-fiscal-year-2023-24 https://calpers.ca.gov/page/newsroom/calpers-news/2024/calpe...
    - jonnybgood 2y ago
      That seems all quite orthogonal. You asked who benefits and I’ve given you an example. Some benefit directly and some indirectly. But millions in the economy benefit and not just through institutions such as CalPERS.
      - toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Fair point, some people lose when policy is patched.
  - tivert 2y ago
    > Off the top of my head, probably the millions of people who have a pension through one of Apple’s institutional investors like CalPERS. The effects of Apple’s profitability goes far and wide. That's like a member of the working poor who owns one share of stock, "benefiting" from company lobbying to keep the minimum wage down. He's got two-hundredths of a cent more in dividends, and has lost many hundreds of dollars in potential wages.
- Nasrudith 2y ago
  Assuming that they know better than everyone else how they should be spending their money, and that reality is the one wrong because the numbers are too big when they are selling to the world? That sort of hubris is exactly why they don't have a world tech industry.
  - toomuchtodo 2y ago
    > That sort of hubris is exactly why they don't have a world tech industry. You make this sound like a bad thing. There are diamonds to be found generating genuine value, but quite a bit of activity is simply low value under the guise of innovation. I would caution against mistaking clarity and understanding for hubris. Europe doesn’t have line go up, but their citizens live better lives by most objective measures. From an optimization and first principles perspective, we should always be mindful of what we are optimizing for, so when I see people come out swinging with “Such profits! Much Tech! Innnnnnnovaaaaaation!” I approach it from a “simmer down now, lets decompose the system and observe” approach. What are the desired outcomes and what is value perspective we can compromise on as “good,” and then work backwards.
ADeerAppeared 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  Yikes, please don't break the site guidelines like that. We have to ban accounts that do. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.

AAPL's profit is roughly equivalent to the GDP of Slovakia.

by khuey 2y ago

AAPL's profit is roughly equivalent to the GDP of Slovakia.

That's great for apple shareholders and citizens of Ireland indirectly benefitting from the miniscule amount of tax Apple pays here!

toomuchtodo 2y ago

I understand you were rebutting OPs point that not every tech company is a capital furnace, but when framed in this manner, this sounds like something to be solved, not something to be proud of. That’s the difference between the EU and the US, and there is a strong case to be made that life is better in the EU when observing majorities. Who is benefiting from Apple’s profits being the size of a small country’s GDP? Not most people, therefore, why would this be optimized for?

maxerickson 2y ago
Apple makes a lot of profit because their products provide a lot of value. Do you think that if you compare the profit that Apple makes to the value that that users get that Apple has the larger share of it? To a disturbing degree?
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  Certainly, if a company’s profits are the size of a small country’s GDP, I find that disturbing regardless of the value they’re delivering. Value is the experience and consumer excess, profits are fiat. Could that same value be delivered with compressed profits leading to greater consumer excess? I believe so. Not all profits are earned, some are inherent once an org achieves a certain maturity or industry position. Visa and Mastercard skimming a non insignificant amount off of US GDP, for example. Is that value? https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/LAZONICK_William_Profits-without-Prosperity-20140406.pdf https://www.ineteconomics.org/uploads/papers/LAZONICK_Willia... (“Profits Without Prosperity: How Stock Buybacks Manipulate the Market, and Leave Most Americans Worse Off”)
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    You didn't answer the first question about whether you think consumers or Apple have the larger share.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      I thought my comment was clear, I will attempt to be more explicit: I am of the opinion that Apple’s profits are excessive, regardless of the consumer value delivered. I respect that others may have opposing views that profits should have no limits as long as value is delivered.
      - bluecalm 2y ago
        Well if EU politicians think Apple's profits are excessive what about introducing laws to foster some competition? You can complain about other countries running circles around you all you want but at the end of the day if you can't make a phone, piece of software or a CPU you will be at the mercy of those who can. The way to reduce "excessive profits" is to make it easier to start businesses which could provide the "overpriced" goods and services cheaper.
        toomuchtodo 2y ago
        Easier to reduce their size with regulation versus believing a free market that isn’t truly free will suddenly whisk competition into the space. This is why China gives their domestic companies “unfair” advantages, because the free market is an illusion. It’s only unfair if you believe there is a “free market” or the market is fair, which it is not. It is easy to forget that the economic system of fiat and capital is a shared delusion, agreed upon rules that can change when needed. The intent is to encourage outcomes, not to be the primary function.
        bluecalm 2y ago
        Whatever your views on free market if you want goods cheaper someone needs to make them cheaper. Splitting up Apple won't result in that. You still need someone else to make phones.
- layer8 2y ago
  > Apple makes a lot of profit because their products provide a lot of value. That is a non-sequitur.
jonnybgood 2y ago
> Who is benefiting from Apple’s profits being the size of a small country’s GDP? Not most people, therefore, why would this be optimized for? Off the top of my head, probably the millions of people who have a pension through one of Apple’s institutional investors like CalPERS. The effects of Apple’s profitability goes far and wide.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  These numbers are always trotted out like these people have a material majority investment in the equities market (“won’t someone think of the teacher pension”), when per the Federal Reserve, the top 10% of Americans by wealth hold 93% of US equities. This doesn’t entirely discount that CalPERS holds almost 40M shares (~$8.7B) of Apple (its top holding), just that them doing so is not reason enough to be more judicious about governing corporate profits. Still profits, but less. Those profits have to come from somewhere. (CalPERS has $502.9B AUM ending June 2024, making APPL ~1.72% of their total assets) https://www.calpers.ca.gov/docs/forms-publications/acfr-2023.pdf https://www.calpers.ca.gov/docs/forms-publications/acfr-2023... (page 115) https://calpers.ca.gov/page/newsroom/calpers-news/2024/calpers-preliminary-investment-return-fiscal-year-2023-24 https://calpers.ca.gov/page/newsroom/calpers-news/2024/calpe...
  - jonnybgood 2y ago
    That seems all quite orthogonal. You asked who benefits and I’ve given you an example. Some benefit directly and some indirectly. But millions in the economy benefit and not just through institutions such as CalPERS.
    - toomuchtodo 2y ago
      Fair point, some people lose when policy is patched.
- tivert 2y ago
  > Off the top of my head, probably the millions of people who have a pension through one of Apple’s institutional investors like CalPERS. The effects of Apple’s profitability goes far and wide. That's like a member of the working poor who owns one share of stock, "benefiting" from company lobbying to keep the minimum wage down. He's got two-hundredths of a cent more in dividends, and has lost many hundreds of dollars in potential wages.
Nasrudith 2y ago
Assuming that they know better than everyone else how they should be spending their money, and that reality is the one wrong because the numbers are too big when they are selling to the world? That sort of hubris is exactly why they don't have a world tech industry.
- toomuchtodo 2y ago
  > That sort of hubris is exactly why they don't have a world tech industry. You make this sound like a bad thing. There are diamonds to be found generating genuine value, but quite a bit of activity is simply low value under the guise of innovation. I would caution against mistaking clarity and understanding for hubris. Europe doesn’t have line go up, but their citizens live better lives by most objective measures. From an optimization and first principles perspective, we should always be mindful of what we are optimizing for, so when I see people come out swinging with “Such profits! Much Tech! Innnnnnnovaaaaaation!” I approach it from a “simmer down now, lets decompose the system and observe” approach. What are the desired outcomes and what is value perspective we can compromise on as “good,” and then work backwards.

ADeerAppeared 2y ago

[flagged]

dang 2y ago
Yikes, please don't break the site guidelines like that. We have to ban accounts that do. If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.