5 ms·

> They've also been trying to extract as much personal info as possible for profit. Because regulators in the USA are hamstrung, they are used to being able to

> They've also been trying to extract as much personal info as possible for profit. Because regulators in the USA are hamstrung, they are used to being able to basically doing stuff that would be illegal if it were in physical stores/pre-existing industries. Did you actually read the article? I don't know how you square this kobayashi maru situation, unless you think Meta is outright lying about it: > Europe recently charged Meta with breaching EU regulations over its “pay or consent” plan. Meta’s business is built around personalized ads, which are worth far more than non-personalized ads. EU regulators required that Meta provide an option that did not involve tracking user data, so Meta created a paid model that would allow users to pay a fee for an ad-free service. This was already a significant concession—personalized ads are so valuable that one analyst estimated paid users would bring in 60 percent less revenue. But EU regulators are now insisting this model also breaches the rules, saying that Meta fails to provide a less personalized but equivalent version of Meta’s social networks. They’re demanding that Meta provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users. In a very real sense, the EU has ruled that Meta’s core business model is illegal. Non-personalized ads cannot economically sustain Meta’s services, but it’s the only solution EU regulators want to accept. Also, what about the CUDA situation? I don't see how any consumer is harmed by this, which is quite different from a social media company doing its thing.

skywhopper 2y ago
lol. You don’t think Meta would outright lie about this stuff? They have been for years and years. Why is this different?
2muchcoffeeman 2y ago
>In a very real sense, the EU has ruled that Meta’s core business model is illegal. Is this actually bad?
- echelon 2y ago
  You're free to not be a user, but millions of other people want it.
  - ktosobcy 2y ago
    BS. Lot's of companies / entities moved there because of said "millions" so you are unwillingly forced to use them as a mean of contact. And sadly open alternatives are blocked/unavailable...
    - dingnuts 2y ago
      you know it's possible to get through life without either Facebook or a Facebook alternative, right? I closed my account ten years ago, and I don't have an alternative. After the withdrawal period I stopped caring. My loved ones send me text messages of their kids. Exactly what is the point of Facebook?
      - bamboozled 2y ago
        He means the network effects of it. Facebook has locked people in via Facebook groups, Instagram messenger and such. So many people are in it’s if you don’t have it, it’s hard to be part of certain communities. I deleted my Facebook like ten years ago, I missed out on a a LOT of party invites.
        dingnuts 2y ago
        people just text me to invite me to things. I don't want to be invited to parties where someone just invites everyone they know on Facebook. if they want me there, they can ask me directly. My social life has not significantly changed since I quit Facebook. if you have good friends, they will find you. if you don't.. why do you care about losing them?
        bamboozled 2y ago
        Popular kids don’t care about that.
        merrywhether 2y ago
        That’s a pretty glib stance. Plenty of people have difficulty finding a friend group and not everyone can be an island until they do (see the loneliness epidemic). Perhaps consider that there are other people with different life situations than yours for whom demanding individualized treatment does not work, and they may have much less choice about what technologies they have to use as a result.
- lolinder 2y ago
  No, but the EU and the citizens thereof should then accept that Meta or other similar companies in similar situations can't operate within the EU. The EU regulators and select HN users might be okay with that, but EU citizens on average probably won't be.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > No, but the EU and the citizens thereof should then accept that Meta or other similar companies in similar situations can't operate within the EU More pointedly, that they can't be built in or run from the EU.
    - account42 2y ago
      ... and can't do business in the EU.
  - ktosobcy 2y ago
    > No, but the EU and the citizens thereof should then accept that Meta or other similar companies in similar situations can't operate within the EU. I wouldn't mind if FB left...
    - lolinder 2y ago
      That's why I said this: > The EU regulators and select HN users might be okay with that
    - uncanneyvalley 2y ago
      WhatsApp though?
      - madmask 2y ago
        Telegram is basically the same
      - ktosobcy 2y ago
        There is signal/telegram/line/whatever. Though FB should have never been allowed to buy WhatsApp and Instagram... (same for Google buying YouTube…) Besides void would be filled sooner or later with something, hopefully something interoperable (XMPP maybe?)
- Zpalmtree 2y ago
  yes, arbitrarily killing business people like is bad
probably_wrong 2y ago
For what is worth, I think Meta is lying about it, or at least playing the victim card too strongly. > They’re demanding that Meta provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users. Meta is being sued because their paid plan is not honest - they are currently asking for 10€/month which is disproportionate - for comparison, a Business Standard Google Workspace account with 2Tb and Gemini costs 11€. From [1], "EU law requires that consent is the genuine free will of the user. Contrary to this law, Meta charges a 'privacy fee' of up to €250 per year if anyone dares to exercise their fundamental right to data protection". [1] https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-files-gdpr-complaint-against-meta-over-pay-or-okay https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-files-gdpr-complaint-against-meta-ov...
- t1hrowaway 2y ago
  The price looks reasonable to me after looking at the average revenue per user. https://www.statista.com/statistics/234056/facebooks-average-advertising-revenue-per-user/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234056/facebooks-average...
  - ameister14 2y ago
    I don't think reasonable prices are based on what the potential maximum profit per user is. Normally it's based on the expense per user plus a percentage for profit.
    - Nasrudith 2y ago
      Your mistake is assuming that "reasonable" exists as something concretely defined. Reasonable is an opinion.
      - ameister14 2y ago
        Reasonable is definitely an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's random. In legal and economic contexts, reasonable profits are a thing that is routinely calculated. Where industries are more regulated, 'reasonable' profits are often bound by statutory guidelines. In more competitive markets, prices are not fixed in the same way but you can take a look at industry standards to ascertain what might be reasonable.
sensanaty 2y ago
I don't believe a single word anyone from Meta says, yes. That company is full of amoral scum, you think lying is beneath them if it helps them out?
Someone 2y ago
> They’re demanding that Meta provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users Where are they demanding that? Reading https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_24_3862 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_24_..., their complaints seem to be that Facebook - cannot call the ‘with adverts’ version ‘free’ - makes it too difficult for consumers to find out what exactly they give to facebook in exchange for this ‘free’ service - is not clear enough about the fact that paying will not remove all ads - forces existing users to choose between paid and ‘free’ versions before they can use the service again. Nowhere do they say on that page that Meta "provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users”. Am I reading the wrong page?
- ADeerAppeared 2y ago
  > Am I reading the wrong page? Yes. That's a separate investigation; "Today's action focuses specifically on the assessment of Meta's practices under EU consumer law and is distinct from the ongoing ... , and the assessment by the Irish Data Protection Commission under the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)." The illegality of "Pay or Consent" is a GDPR thing. The EDPB ruling on that issue is here: https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion_202408_consentorpay_en.pdf https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion... But it's an extremely settled matter. The GDPR says explicitly that consent is not "freely given" if the provision of a service is dependent on said consent. (Where the service does not absolutely require the data processing in question; See Article 7, recital 43)
  - Someone 2y ago
    Thanks. They avoid saying Meta should have a free option without personalized ads; they only say Meta should consider it. I wonder what other options Meta has, though, apart from leaving the market. Maybe they’re thinking of Meta making Facebook paid for everybody, but giving users the option of getting paid for getting personalized ads? Apart from the wording, I don’t see how that’s different from “It’s free, but if you don’t want personalized have to pay”, though. It would be different in that it makes it more explicit that users are selling something, though, so maybe it would be enough in the eyes of the EU?

skywhopper 2y ago

lol. You don’t think Meta would outright lie about this stuff? They have been for years and years. Why is this different?

2muchcoffeeman 2y ago

>In a very real sense, the EU has ruled that Meta’s core business model is illegal. Is this actually bad?

echelon 2y ago
You're free to not be a user, but millions of other people want it.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  BS. Lot's of companies / entities moved there because of said "millions" so you are unwillingly forced to use them as a mean of contact. And sadly open alternatives are blocked/unavailable...
  - dingnuts 2y ago
    you know it's possible to get through life without either Facebook or a Facebook alternative, right? I closed my account ten years ago, and I don't have an alternative. After the withdrawal period I stopped caring. My loved ones send me text messages of their kids. Exactly what is the point of Facebook?
    - bamboozled 2y ago
      He means the network effects of it. Facebook has locked people in via Facebook groups, Instagram messenger and such. So many people are in it’s if you don’t have it, it’s hard to be part of certain communities. I deleted my Facebook like ten years ago, I missed out on a a LOT of party invites.
      - dingnuts 2y ago
        people just text me to invite me to things. I don't want to be invited to parties where someone just invites everyone they know on Facebook. if they want me there, they can ask me directly. My social life has not significantly changed since I quit Facebook. if you have good friends, they will find you. if you don't.. why do you care about losing them?
        bamboozled 2y ago
        Popular kids don’t care about that.
        merrywhether 2y ago
        That’s a pretty glib stance. Plenty of people have difficulty finding a friend group and not everyone can be an island until they do (see the loneliness epidemic). Perhaps consider that there are other people with different life situations than yours for whom demanding individualized treatment does not work, and they may have much less choice about what technologies they have to use as a result.
lolinder 2y ago
No, but the EU and the citizens thereof should then accept that Meta or other similar companies in similar situations can't operate within the EU. The EU regulators and select HN users might be okay with that, but EU citizens on average probably won't be.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > No, but the EU and the citizens thereof should then accept that Meta or other similar companies in similar situations can't operate within the EU More pointedly, that they can't be built in or run from the EU.
  - account42 2y ago
    ... and can't do business in the EU.
- ktosobcy 2y ago
  > No, but the EU and the citizens thereof should then accept that Meta or other similar companies in similar situations can't operate within the EU. I wouldn't mind if FB left...
  - lolinder 2y ago
    That's why I said this: > The EU regulators and select HN users might be okay with that
  - uncanneyvalley 2y ago
    WhatsApp though?
    - madmask 2y ago
      Telegram is basically the same
    - ktosobcy 2y ago
      There is signal/telegram/line/whatever. Though FB should have never been allowed to buy WhatsApp and Instagram... (same for Google buying YouTube…) Besides void would be filled sooner or later with something, hopefully something interoperable (XMPP maybe?)
Zpalmtree 2y ago
yes, arbitrarily killing business people like is bad

probably_wrong 2y ago

For what is worth, I think Meta is lying about it, or at least playing the victim card too strongly. > They’re demanding that Meta provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users. Meta is being sued because their paid plan is not honest - they are currently asking for 10€/month which is disproportionate - for comparison, a Business Standard Google Workspace account with 2Tb and Gemini costs 11€. From [1], "EU law requires that consent is the genuine free will of the user. Contrary to this law, Meta charges a 'privacy fee' of up to €250 per year if anyone dares to exercise their fundamental right to data protection". [1] https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-files-gdpr-complaint-against-meta-over-pay-or-okay https://noyb.eu/en/noyb-files-gdpr-complaint-against-meta-ov...

t1hrowaway 2y ago
The price looks reasonable to me after looking at the average revenue per user. https://www.statista.com/statistics/234056/facebooks-average-advertising-revenue-per-user/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/234056/facebooks-average...
- ameister14 2y ago
  I don't think reasonable prices are based on what the potential maximum profit per user is. Normally it's based on the expense per user plus a percentage for profit.
  - Nasrudith 2y ago
    Your mistake is assuming that "reasonable" exists as something concretely defined. Reasonable is an opinion.
    - ameister14 2y ago
      Reasonable is definitely an opinion, but that doesn't mean it's random. In legal and economic contexts, reasonable profits are a thing that is routinely calculated. Where industries are more regulated, 'reasonable' profits are often bound by statutory guidelines. In more competitive markets, prices are not fixed in the same way but you can take a look at industry standards to ascertain what might be reasonable.

sensanaty 2y ago

I don't believe a single word anyone from Meta says, yes. That company is full of amoral scum, you think lying is beneath them if it helps them out?

Someone 2y ago

> They’re demanding that Meta provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users Where are they demanding that? Reading https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_24_3862 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_24_..., their complaints seem to be that Facebook - cannot call the ‘with adverts’ version ‘free’ - makes it too difficult for consumers to find out what exactly they give to facebook in exchange for this ‘free’ service - is not clear enough about the fact that paying will not remove all ads - forces existing users to choose between paid and ‘free’ versions before they can use the service again. Nowhere do they say on that page that Meta "provide free full services without personalized ads or a monthly fee for users”. Am I reading the wrong page?

ADeerAppeared 2y ago
> Am I reading the wrong page? Yes. That's a separate investigation; "Today's action focuses specifically on the assessment of Meta's practices under EU consumer law and is distinct from the ongoing ... , and the assessment by the Irish Data Protection Commission under the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)." The illegality of "Pay or Consent" is a GDPR thing. The EDPB ruling on that issue is here: https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion_202408_consentorpay_en.pdf https://www.edpb.europa.eu/system/files/2024-04/edpb_opinion... But it's an extremely settled matter. The GDPR says explicitly that consent is not "freely given" if the provision of a service is dependent on said consent. (Where the service does not absolutely require the data processing in question; See Article 7, recital 43)
- Someone 2y ago
  Thanks. They avoid saying Meta should have a free option without personalized ads; they only say Meta should consider it. I wonder what other options Meta has, though, apart from leaving the market. Maybe they’re thinking of Meta making Facebook paid for everybody, but giving users the option of getting paid for getting personalized ads? Apart from the wording, I don’t see how that’s different from “It’s free, but if you don’t want personalized have to pay”, though. It would be different in that it makes it more explicit that users are selling something, though, so maybe it would be enough in the eyes of the EU?