4 ms·

I’m living in Europe, I'm deeply disappointed by the current situation. The problems run much deeper than just regulations; they extend far beyond politics. 1.

I’m living in Europe, I'm deeply disappointed by the current situation. The problems run much deeper than just regulations; they extend far beyond politics. 1. VCs outright avoid investing in deep tech, with only rare exceptions. 2. Founders overwhelmingly choose to build small, sustainable companies, steering clear of big tech. 3. Employees consistently prefer consulting jobs and value vacation days over equity. 4. The bureaucracy startups face when incorporating or raising funds is staggering (Germany, I'm looking at you). While this may seem beneficial from a social perspective, it creates the worst possible environment for tech startups. I have immense respect for the few European startups that manage to survive and thrive despite these obstacles.

kredd 2y ago
Fair enough. Unless I misunderstood your point it sounds like, what you guys have right now is good for people and their lives. Isn't that the entire point of life? I can see why general population might support it, while us techies would be pushing for deregulation and less of work-life balance. So my understanding of these articles is "it might be bad in a long term!", but Europe is still big enough market for all these companies eventually bend over backwards to get access to it. Again, really no skin in the game, as I don't live there and I only have limited amount of perspective, which comes from my European resident non-techie friends.
- cheptsov 2y ago
  Europe is an amazing place, which is why I moved here in the first place. But for techies, it can be pretty challenging. The issue isn't with the techies themselves, though. The problem is that the environment here holds back big tech, making Europe heavily dependent on the US.
  - layer8 2y ago
    The mistake is making oneself dependent on big tech in the first place.
- ryandrake 2y ago
  I think a lot of the complaining on HN comes from the engineers themselves. "Ugh," they say, "We have to write all of this boring code to comply with regulations, rather than writing exciting features!" I see it a little differently. As someone who's spent a good part of the last 6-8 years working on GDPR and DMA compliance projects, the way I look at it is: "We are finally making our product better for users, working on privacy improvements that our companies have opposed until it was forced on them." EU-led regulation has been a great engineering opportunity and a product forcing-function.
- brigadier132 2y ago
  > what you guys have right now is good for people and their lives Let's see how long it lasts, Europe's economy is terrible and their people are significantly poorer. I don't think their current welfare state is sustainable without tax revenue from large businesses. Eventually every European citizen will be a waiter, hotel staff, or a tour guide.
  - kazen44 2y ago
    how is europe's economy terrible? by what metric? considering that the EU still has a very large part of the global economy, especially compared to its population and size. Also, the tech industry is not the only part of the economy. large parts of the EU are absolutely massive in terms of industrial machinery and scientific companies. People on HN always seem to forget that a lot of money can be made by making something very high end which solves a specific problem, no matter if it is sexy or not.
    - hnhg 2y ago
      Maybe terrible is too strong but the trajectory is not great: https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/25/germanys-business-climate-worsens-in-july-european-stocks-plunge https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/25/germanys-busine...?
      - kazen44 2y ago
        well, lets not forget what happened since the start of 2022... the invasion of ukraine has a major impact on the european economy, but that has very little to do with the article in question...
    - treprinum 2y ago
      40 years ago Europe (without former Warsaw Pact countries) accounted for 25% of global trade. These days it's ~12% and dropping. Since 2008 there is no meaningful GDP growth (1-2%) whereas US and China exploded in that time. India is on track to surpass EU by 2050. All that will be left is a large open-air museum.
- pitaj 2y ago
  Comfortable stagnation is not a stable state for a society.
kranke155 2y ago
The real fundamental issue is VCs, which as you pointed out, are far more adventurous in America.
- cheptsov 2y ago
  Unfortunately true, but one can also think that it’s a consequence and not the root cause. Why VC should invest if the environment isn’t supportive? A vicious circle :)
  - kazen44 2y ago
    to give a different perspective, why are VC's somehow the cause of "tech industry"? this seems like a very US perspective on tech in general. Also, VC's in the US have another large advantage. Very, very cheap money because the status of the US dollar as a reserve currency compared to the euro and other currencies.
    - alephnerd 2y ago
      > why are VC's somehow the cause of "tech industry" Who else will give private capital for what is purely an idea? Not Banks giving a business loan - they will demand interest at the current interest rate. Not Private Equity - they only move private capital into public companies or late stage private companies Not Hedge Funds - they only deploy capital into public markets Not Growth Funds - they only deploy capital into late stage companies The only funds that will deploy private capital into early stage companies are Angel Investors and VC Funds. > this seems like a very US perspective on tech in general Israel, India, China, UK, Russia (pre-2022), Ukraine (pre-2022), and ASEAN all developed a VC scene similar to the American scene. Yet mainland West European investors are nowhere near as dynamic. If the Western European market was more dynamic, Spotify would not have moved to NYC, Ghodsi would have founded Databricks in Stockholm instead of San Francisco, and Datadog would have remained a purely French company instead of moving most of hiring from Product Leadership to HR to the US a decade ago. While you can mention ASML, the only reason ASML/Phillips even has EUV IP is because the US Government gave it to them instead of Canon or Nikon due to anti-trust reasons in the early 2000s and can very easily revoke IP access if prodded. > Very, very cheap money because the status of the US dollar as a reserve currency compared to the euro and other currencies Then why do high interest rate Israel, India, and China continue to have fairly robust VC scenes despite having high interest rates and currency controls and/or relatively illiquid currency markets? The reality is "cheap money" as in interest rates don't really matter for early stage funding. Indtutional investors always leave some money on the side for VC funding as a diversification tool. The difference is American, Israeli, Indian, Chinese, and ASEAN institutional investors will try to fund local VCs to build a local ecosystem, but Western European ones will just hand that money to an American, Israeli, Indian, or Chinese VC instead.
nrr 2y ago
Germany's position in context is at least understandable: the Mittelstand is a force to be reckoned with, and that entire segment of Germany's trade system is extremely averse to risk. (It's also a lot of other things, part of which can be witnessed by hopping the border to Switzerland and reading through the platform for their self-proclaimed "Partei des Mittelstandes.")
skywhopper 2y ago
Wait, these are problems? Other than #4 they all sound like good things.
- spiderice 2y ago
  A working base that values vacation days over equity doesn’t sound like a place I’d want to start a business. And I’m not the only one. Many companies don’t hire in Europe because it’s too risky to get a dud employee that you can’t fire without having to pay their salary for the next 6 months.
  - Moldoteck 2y ago
    I find it the other way- lots of contracting roles in europe coming from US/Switzerland. There are also many roles coming from different eu countries to other eu countries. In other words it doesn't seem to have such a big impact
  - sofixa 2y ago
    > Many companies don’t hire in Europe because it’s too risky to get a dud employee that you can’t fire without having to pay their salary for the next 6 months. That's what trial periods are for, within the first 1-12 months (depending on position and sector) you can very easily get rid of employees. That's when you're supposed to evaluate their performance and fit. And if they don't do their job afterwards you reprimand them and they can then be fired for cause if you have actual causes.
fl0id 2y ago
from a personal and social perspective, I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, even in the EU we still ahve a lot of BS startups. We imo need more sustainable businesses, that value actual societal value/value to consumers or businesses over growth and shareholder value.
- cheptsov 2y ago
  This seems like a very socialistic perspective to me, which might not align well with big tech and innovation. I suggest re-reading "Atlas Shrugged" for this topic.
  - p_j_w 2y ago
    It doesn't sound at all like the workers owning the means of production. >I suggest re-reading "Atlas Shrugged" for this topic. Ah yes, that's the problem. We all need to read and subscribe to the ideology of Ayn Rand, then we'd understand and everything would be better!
  - sensanaty 2y ago
    We should definitely take the word of an infamous welfare queen (Ayn Rand) on how to run society, indeed
    - Zpalmtree 2y ago
      not an argument
      - Qwertious 2y ago
        Neither is recommending a piece of fiction.
- xvector 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - 2y ago

kredd 2y ago

Fair enough. Unless I misunderstood your point it sounds like, what you guys have right now is good for people and their lives. Isn't that the entire point of life? I can see why general population might support it, while us techies would be pushing for deregulation and less of work-life balance. So my understanding of these articles is "it might be bad in a long term!", but Europe is still big enough market for all these companies eventually bend over backwards to get access to it. Again, really no skin in the game, as I don't live there and I only have limited amount of perspective, which comes from my European resident non-techie friends.

cheptsov 2y ago
Europe is an amazing place, which is why I moved here in the first place. But for techies, it can be pretty challenging. The issue isn't with the techies themselves, though. The problem is that the environment here holds back big tech, making Europe heavily dependent on the US.
- layer8 2y ago
  The mistake is making oneself dependent on big tech in the first place.
ryandrake 2y ago
I think a lot of the complaining on HN comes from the engineers themselves. "Ugh," they say, "We have to write all of this boring code to comply with regulations, rather than writing exciting features!" I see it a little differently. As someone who's spent a good part of the last 6-8 years working on GDPR and DMA compliance projects, the way I look at it is: "We are finally making our product better for users, working on privacy improvements that our companies have opposed until it was forced on them." EU-led regulation has been a great engineering opportunity and a product forcing-function.
brigadier132 2y ago
> what you guys have right now is good for people and their lives Let's see how long it lasts, Europe's economy is terrible and their people are significantly poorer. I don't think their current welfare state is sustainable without tax revenue from large businesses. Eventually every European citizen will be a waiter, hotel staff, or a tour guide.
- kazen44 2y ago
  how is europe's economy terrible? by what metric? considering that the EU still has a very large part of the global economy, especially compared to its population and size. Also, the tech industry is not the only part of the economy. large parts of the EU are absolutely massive in terms of industrial machinery and scientific companies. People on HN always seem to forget that a lot of money can be made by making something very high end which solves a specific problem, no matter if it is sexy or not.
  - hnhg 2y ago
    Maybe terrible is too strong but the trajectory is not great: https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/25/germanys-business-climate-worsens-in-july-european-stocks-plunge https://www.euronews.com/business/2024/07/25/germanys-busine...?
    - kazen44 2y ago
      well, lets not forget what happened since the start of 2022... the invasion of ukraine has a major impact on the european economy, but that has very little to do with the article in question...
  - treprinum 2y ago
    40 years ago Europe (without former Warsaw Pact countries) accounted for 25% of global trade. These days it's ~12% and dropping. Since 2008 there is no meaningful GDP growth (1-2%) whereas US and China exploded in that time. India is on track to surpass EU by 2050. All that will be left is a large open-air museum.
pitaj 2y ago
Comfortable stagnation is not a stable state for a society.

kranke155 2y ago

The real fundamental issue is VCs, which as you pointed out, are far more adventurous in America.

cheptsov 2y ago
Unfortunately true, but one can also think that it’s a consequence and not the root cause. Why VC should invest if the environment isn’t supportive? A vicious circle :)
- kazen44 2y ago
  to give a different perspective, why are VC's somehow the cause of "tech industry"? this seems like a very US perspective on tech in general. Also, VC's in the US have another large advantage. Very, very cheap money because the status of the US dollar as a reserve currency compared to the euro and other currencies.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    > why are VC's somehow the cause of "tech industry" Who else will give private capital for what is purely an idea? Not Banks giving a business loan - they will demand interest at the current interest rate. Not Private Equity - they only move private capital into public companies or late stage private companies Not Hedge Funds - they only deploy capital into public markets Not Growth Funds - they only deploy capital into late stage companies The only funds that will deploy private capital into early stage companies are Angel Investors and VC Funds. > this seems like a very US perspective on tech in general Israel, India, China, UK, Russia (pre-2022), Ukraine (pre-2022), and ASEAN all developed a VC scene similar to the American scene. Yet mainland West European investors are nowhere near as dynamic. If the Western European market was more dynamic, Spotify would not have moved to NYC, Ghodsi would have founded Databricks in Stockholm instead of San Francisco, and Datadog would have remained a purely French company instead of moving most of hiring from Product Leadership to HR to the US a decade ago. While you can mention ASML, the only reason ASML/Phillips even has EUV IP is because the US Government gave it to them instead of Canon or Nikon due to anti-trust reasons in the early 2000s and can very easily revoke IP access if prodded. > Very, very cheap money because the status of the US dollar as a reserve currency compared to the euro and other currencies Then why do high interest rate Israel, India, and China continue to have fairly robust VC scenes despite having high interest rates and currency controls and/or relatively illiquid currency markets? The reality is "cheap money" as in interest rates don't really matter for early stage funding. Indtutional investors always leave some money on the side for VC funding as a diversification tool. The difference is American, Israeli, Indian, Chinese, and ASEAN institutional investors will try to fund local VCs to build a local ecosystem, but Western European ones will just hand that money to an American, Israeli, Indian, or Chinese VC instead.

nrr 2y ago

Germany's position in context is at least understandable: the Mittelstand is a force to be reckoned with, and that entire segment of Germany's trade system is extremely averse to risk. (It's also a lot of other things, part of which can be witnessed by hopping the border to Switzerland and reading through the platform for their self-proclaimed "Partei des Mittelstandes.")

skywhopper 2y ago

Wait, these are problems? Other than #4 they all sound like good things.

spiderice 2y ago
A working base that values vacation days over equity doesn’t sound like a place I’d want to start a business. And I’m not the only one. Many companies don’t hire in Europe because it’s too risky to get a dud employee that you can’t fire without having to pay their salary for the next 6 months.
- Moldoteck 2y ago
  I find it the other way- lots of contracting roles in europe coming from US/Switzerland. There are also many roles coming from different eu countries to other eu countries. In other words it doesn't seem to have such a big impact
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Many companies don’t hire in Europe because it’s too risky to get a dud employee that you can’t fire without having to pay their salary for the next 6 months. That's what trial periods are for, within the first 1-12 months (depending on position and sector) you can very easily get rid of employees. That's when you're supposed to evaluate their performance and fit. And if they don't do their job afterwards you reprimand them and they can then be fired for cause if you have actual causes.

fl0id 2y ago

from a personal and social perspective, I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, even in the EU we still ahve a lot of BS startups. We imo need more sustainable businesses, that value actual societal value/value to consumers or businesses over growth and shareholder value.

cheptsov 2y ago
This seems like a very socialistic perspective to me, which might not align well with big tech and innovation. I suggest re-reading "Atlas Shrugged" for this topic.
- p_j_w 2y ago
  It doesn't sound at all like the workers owning the means of production. >I suggest re-reading "Atlas Shrugged" for this topic. Ah yes, that's the problem. We all need to read and subscribe to the ideology of Ayn Rand, then we'd understand and everything would be better!
- sensanaty 2y ago
  We should definitely take the word of an infamous welfare queen (Ayn Rand) on how to run society, indeed
  - Zpalmtree 2y ago
    not an argument
    - Qwertious 2y ago
      Neither is recommending a piece of fiction.
xvector 2y ago
[flagged]
- 2y ago