22 ms·

Reverse-engineering my speakers' API to get reasonable volume control

287 points by jamesbvaughan 2y ago

rahimnathwani 2y ago
I know it is tangential, but this about his old system caught my attention: With that system, I could set the amplifier’s analog volume knob such that the max volume out of the streamer corresponded to my actual maximum preferred listening volume, giving me access to the full range of Spotify or AirPlay’s volume controls. Assuming an analog input, this might result in a noticable quality reduction at low volumes.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  In this case, I was using the optical out from a WiiM mini into a Yamaha amp. I don't know much about digital audio, but I know that I was able to control the volume of the WiiM's digital output with that setup. On the other hand, I use a Schiit Asgard at my desk, where I have it connected to my Mac via USB-C. In that setup, I have no control over the volume level going in to the Asgard. MacOS just disables the software volume control when I'm using that audio output.
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    I think for a WiiM mini to control the volume on the digital output, it would need to scale down every sample. This is probably fine over some range (it has a 24 bit output, so putting the volume at two thirds, would still result in 16 bits, the same as CD). But I'm curious what would happen at very low volumes, e.g. if you're down to only 4 bits.
    - mattclarkdotnet 2y ago
      Each bit is ~6dB, so 2/3 perceived volume is still 23 bits. 8 bits is 48dB, which is less than 1% of the original volume, and still using 16 bits
      - TylerE 2y ago
        And this is why all computer audio should be 24 bit internally. A lot of the newer pro apps are actually using 32 bit floats
    - rahimnathwani 2y ago
      Too late to edit my original comments. I am clearly mistaken about the relationship between amplitude and perceived loudness.
- hunter2_ 2y ago
  Reducing excessively before the DAC and high gain after the DAC is far more likely to result in quality reduction, due to quantization error. Having reasonable levels before the DAC and just the right amount of gain after the DAC (e.g., via an amplifier's attenuator setting) is the best possible scenario. So TFA's prior setup may have been superior in this regard, depending on how the digital volume control on the new speakers is implemented (i.e., before the DAC, or as a VCA after the DAC). Where this breaks down is if the analog signal path (after the DAC) consists of something noisy after the attenuator. Passive attenuation (like built into an amp, or the master fader of a mixer, etc.) won't add noise, but something active like an outboard EQ would. The attenuation to set desired max level must be completely last (before power amp) to avoid noise.
  - jeffbee 2y ago
    We really don't want to be touching the digital signal. The state of the art is to change the DAC reference level, putting the DAC output at the sweet spot for the analog stage for any given ultimate output level.
- AceJohnny2 2y ago
  Tangential fun fact: amps have a fixed gain, because it's hard to make a variable gain without distortion [1]. The volume knob doesn't control amplification, in fact it controls an attenuation stage, because it's easier to make variable attenuation with low distortion. [1] that's why there were so many different "classes" of amps, they're all making different tradeoffs about how they're doing the amplification.
  - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
    That helps explain why the "volume" as represented on disk in the debug bundle as "attenuation" and was measured in negative dB.
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    According to Claude, the attenuation stage is before the power amp stage. Does that mean worse SNR whether the volume is controlled using the volume control or via the input? (Ignoring the additional quantization issue with a scaled digital input.)
    - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
      Class D doesn't have any attenuation. This is a big factor in their greater efficiency.
    - dreamcompiler 2y ago
      You could put the attenuation stage after the power amp stage but it would require big beefy resistors that could absorb a lot of power. They'd get hot and the whole thing would be very inefficient. But hey, very low distortion.
kogir 2y ago
While I’m all for physical controls, especially ones that self-adjust to reflect the state of the remote device at all times, I wonder if the author just doesn’t know you can finely adjust volume in iOS control center by force/long pressing and then dragging.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  This is a great point! When I'm using AirPlay, that feature is really useful. I'm more often using Spotify Connect though, where I'm limited to either using the physical volume buttons on my phone, the small slider in the desktop app, or the slider that's many clicks in to the Spotify mobile app. In reality though, this project is more about the fun of it than about it being a really pressing need.
  - EthicalSimilar 2y ago
    It also works when using Spotify Connect on your iOS device. If you can use your volume buttons to control it you can also adjust it with the slider in the control centre.
    - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
      You're correct, TIL! That's really helpful to know. At this point though, I'm excited enough to build a volume knob that I'll probably still do it. edit: After trying this out it a bit, it's definitely an improvement over the small sliders and a huge improvement over the stepped volume changes from the buttons, but I'm still left wishing I could make use of more than ~10% of the slider's full range.
  - swyx 2y ago
    spotify has so many user hostile practices that I am completely mystified why the majority of the population seems to prefer them in a world where youtube music exists.
    - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
xyst 2y ago
Why do speakers even expose a web api in the first place? It’s just easily available without any security? Hope this person segmented this device away from other devices. The lack of basic security in the IoT space is astounding to me.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  It is concerning. On this particular model, it's available over plain HTTP, provides no auth settings, and provides an easy input for uploading new firmware. https://jamesbvaughan.com/volume-controller-1/basic-web-interface.png https://jamesbvaughan.com/volume-controller-1/basic-web-inte...
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  “The S in IoT stands for secure.”
- denysvitali 2y ago
  I was looking for this comment. Basically he managed to get a sort of unauthenticated R/W access to the file system. This is really concerning
kopirgan 2y ago
This runs in your laptop? Very interesting.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  For now, yes. I'd also like to make a standalone wireless physical volume knob and I may try to make an iPhone app for it. Ideally I'd be able to override the behavior of the volume buttons, similar to how Spotify is able to do that on iPhones when you're using Spotify Connect.
jamesbfb 2y ago
That position of the couch infuriating! And yes I bet you moved that lovely looking couch back after the photo :)
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  Don't worry - that couch isn't for listening :) I've got a very comfy and intentionally positioned chair on the other side of the room for that.
dkga 2y ago
I love this type of posts, and I’m amazed the speaker exposes its API like this. The kid in me thinks there could also be a way perhaps to transmit audio through this (or another) API? (very low chance, but…)
- sigseg1v 2y ago
  From his filesystem listing in the post it looks like you can overwrite firmware update data. I wouldn't be surprised if you can make it play or capture whatever you want be overwriting the firmware.
NixCald 2y ago
Fantastic, this could be iterated on by setting it up as a custom airplay speaker with re-mapped volume thresholds. https://github.com/mikebrady/shairport-sync https://github.com/mikebrady/shairport-sync
rectang 2y ago
> Those methods either give me a tiny slider that I can only use 10% of or about 15 steps where the jump from step 3 to step 4 takes the speakers from “a bit too quiet” to “definitely bothering the neighbors” levels. Volume controls need to be logarithmic, not linear. To a first degree approximation, everybody gets this wrong.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- TheNewAndy 2y ago
  Volume controls also shouldn't just be a flat wideband gain - they should respect how we actually perceive sound so the timbre doesn't change as the level changes (when you turn the volume down, you are typically left with just the stuff in the vocal frequency range, and lose all the bass etc). Doing this stuff well is pretty hard (e.g. designing filters that can do that kind of volume adjustment is hard because you want to be constantly adjusting them, which means you need to be super careful with your filter state) but I have heard what it sounds like, and once you hear it you get angry at all other volume controls.
  - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
    > Volume controls also shouldn't just be a flat wideband gain - they should respect how we actually perceive sound so the timbre doesn't change as the level changes (when you turn the volume down, you are typically left with just the stuff in the vocal frequency range, and lose all the bass etc). The amp I'm upgrading from was interesting in this regard. In addition to the main volume knob, it had a loudness knob. The manual actually recommended keeping the volume knob fixed most of the time and using the loudness knob to set the listening level throughout the day. From the manual: > 1. Set the LOUDNESS control to the FLAT position. > 2. Rotate the VOLUME control on the front panel (or press VOLUME +/– on the remote control) to set the sound output level to the loudest listening level that you would listen to. > 3. Rotate the LOUDNESS control counterclockwise until the desired volume is obtained.
    - 2y ago
hilbert42 2y ago
I wish someone would solve the opposite problem in PCs and laptops—that of too little audio gain. Designers never leave any gain in reserve for when audio input levels are too low. Why do they do this? The problem is so obvious that you'd reckon they're doing it to deliberately annoy users. The problem doesn't stop there, the lack of gain with Bluetooth is notorious. Almost every Bluetooth device I own has insufficient gain, franky it's a damn nuisance. The audio in the two sound bars that I own is so low on some audio material that I'm thinking of pulling them apart to see if I can find an op amp and increase its feedback resistor to obtain more gain. I should NOT have to do this. Let me give you an example, the audio levels on many YouTube videos can be all over the place. Often the audio can be 6 to 10 dB below what it ought to be, thus it's impossible to listen on a laptop's speakers, especially so when one is listening in a location where the background noise is high. What's wrong with the designers who design this digital stuff, don't they ever use the equipment themselves? Haven't they ever seen a traditional radio or HiFi where the volume potentiometer is off at the 7 o'clock position, 12 noon is the maximum volume with a nominal one volt input signal or a radio station that's using normal levels of modulation, and the reserve gain is the range from the noon position to the 5PM one? Do I have to say it again? The reserve gain is for when the input signal is lower that it ought to be. The world is not ideal, audio signals can be far from ideal—even from high tech companies like Google. Occasionally help comes along, VLC has settings that allow the gain to be set to over 100℅ but I've often had situations where even VLC hasn't had the necessary reserve. I've come to the conclusion the designers and programmers of this digital equipment haven't a clue about how ordinary amplifiers work. Or they have never taken the trouble to find out. They just assume a 16-bit input has 65536 levels and that's the range. Full stop! They never give consideration to what happens when the peak audio input covers perhaps less than one third that range of bits. To get enough volume I've even had to use the audio equalizer, that's when one has been available, and often there is not. To get the extra gain I slide all sliders to maximum. Having to do this frequently is an ergonomic nightmare. This is what happens when the arrogant digital world is too prowd to take a leaf out of the analog world—the world that managed to get these issues right about a century or more ago.
- marshray 2y ago
  > Why do they do this? So they don't damage users' speakers, their hearing, or generally cause annoyance. > They just assume a 16-bit input has 65536 levels and that's the range. Full stop! They never give consideration to what happens when the peak audio input covers perhaps less than one third that range of bits. 1/3 of 65536 is still +-11,000 voltage levels, or 14.4 bits of information. That's a really good place for a signal to be! It leaves a bit (literally) of room for the peaks without clipping. Now if you meant 1/3 of 16 bits = 5.3 bits of information, that is indeed a poorly recorded signal. +-20 voltage levels. It's going to sound terrible whether you boost it digitally or analogly. (is that a word?)
Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
// Yes, this is JavaScript embedded in HTML embedded in TypeScript. // I only recently learned that you can reference elements by ID this way. // It's kind of horrible but also I love it on tiny pages like this. You have to kind of embrace the duality of every moment. -Spencer Dinwiddie
whynotmaybe 2y ago
You could check the m5stack dial for your next step. A rotary knob with an integrated esp32. https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smart-rotary-knob-w-1-28-round-touch-screen https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smar...
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  ooh, thanks for this. I will check that out!
laurencei 2y ago
Hey OP - if your thinking about a smart knob with haptic feedback etc - check this open source project out that you can build yourself - its amazing: https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob Video demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA&t=1s
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  That seems like it could be perfect. Thanks!
- taneq 2y ago
  Oh man, this has been on my to-build list for ages, right up there with the 6 axis “3D mouse” build. I love the attention to detail.
  - stavros 2y ago
    I made a SpaceMouse the other day, it was really easy, mostly just the print. It took around an hour to assemble everything, I think? It also worked very well.
    - RobotCaleb 2y ago
      Which one did you make?
      - stavros 2y ago
        This one is my make: https://www.printables.com/model/908684-spacemouse-mini-slim-profile-with-easier-assembly/comments/1860785 https://www.printables.com/model/908684-spacemouse-mini-slim...
        RobotCaleb 2y ago
        Very cool. Thank you!
possibleworlds 2y ago
Nice speakers! I'm guessing the model, if correct here are some spins for those interested https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_4329p/ https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_4329p/ Weird you can't limit digital output. I also listen mostly at low volumes and have the same issue. Part of the reason I chose Sonos is this is built in across all products, alongside an effective loudness toggle. This has been particularly helpful with some little Genelec 8010s I use as desktop speakers plugged into a Sonos Port.
- gregoryl 2y ago
  How are you going with the new Sonos app upgrade?
  - possibleworlds 2y ago
    Perfectly fine, I actually prefer it in almost every way. The only issue I agree is truly serious is the latest release draining battery on iOS with or without background activity disabled. That’s a real bad bug to introduce and I’m surprised it hasn’t been fixed yet.
Dwedit 2y ago
What the hell browser makers... Make it so that file:// URLS are extremely locked down and doesn't have enough rights to even fetch files in the same directory (or even itself), yet grant localhost URLs full permissions... There's a reason why local web applications aren't a collection of HTML and JS files, and are instead full copies of the Chromium browser.
- NavinF 2y ago
  What are you talking about? The OP made requests from his Bun server. CORS would obviously break any request made directly from js in the browser
- cyanmagenta 2y ago
  The difference is that file:// URLs can be opened by your grandparent opening a .html file that they downloaded, whereas http://localhost http://localhost requires you to actually set up a web server. Imagine double-clicking a malicious page.html and suddenly your entire Documents folder can be fetched and manipulated by JavaScript. Yikes. But to your latter point, yeah, there’s no reason sandboxed web apps couldn’t be given better file:// permissions.
  - recursive 2y ago
    This drives me nuts. <script src> works on file, but <script type=module src> does not. In order to use ESM imports from file:// you have to load the scripts from blob:// URLs. It seems crazy to me.
ly 2y ago
I think the article incorrectly states that KEF is owned by Harman, I can only find evidence on the contrary.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  It seems that you’re correct! I’m not sure what led me to believe that. I’ll update the post when I get home later. edit: fixed I dug into the API similarities between the speakers more and it seems like they're both using this software called StreamSDK [1]. I hadn't heard of that and it's given me more to research on these. [1] https://www.streamunlimited.com/stream-sdk/ https://www.streamunlimited.com/stream-sdk/
doctorvaughan 2y ago
I love this. Thanks for posting. Your Father and Mother must be very proud of you.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  Are you perhaps related to the author?
radicality 2y ago
Seems like the author moved from a “speakers + networked amp” setup, to a one where with active speakers where everything is built-in. When I was buying speakers for my apartment some time ago, I was similarly considering going for the all-in-one options like this, but I’m glad I didn’t. I prefer the “dumb passive speaker + networked amp”, as it allows you to pick / replace / upgrade the separate components. Went for the KEF LS50, and for the amp Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. And that’s despite KEF having the all-in-one active version of those speakers. Very happy with my choices!
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  > Seems like the author moved from a “speakers + networked amp” setup, to a one where with active speakers where everything is built-in. Close! I moved from a "speakers + non-networked amp + streamer" setup. I'm still running separate components for nearer-field listening at my desk, where I've got KEF Q150s powered by a small Schiit pre-amp and amp.
  - radicality 2y ago
    Nice! I don't have any Schiit gear, but few months ago I started reading the founders book 'Schiit Happened'. I got halfway through (and then got distracted by other books, need to pick it back up), but can definitely recommend it for anyone interested in audio, and especially if you already have some Schiit!
    - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
      Oh cool, I wasn't aware of the book but I'll check it out.
- iamacyborg 2y ago
  I have the “wireless” powered kef ls50 and the regular ones. The wireless model has significantly better bass response and sounds much better to my ear. I actually had a fault with them recently and they stopped working, I’d bought the speakers used on ebay and even had I had a warranty they were past 5 years old by the point the fault developed. Regardless, kef repaired them entirely for free. 10/10 would buy again.
torphedo 2y ago
Wow, I never thought speakers would connect to the network, let alone be running Linux and a webserver for a hidden interface. Honestly, I thought speakers still weren't any more complicated than "convert this digital signal into a signal playable by the driver" with a volume knob.
- batch12 2y ago
  The digital to analog conversion is even complicated for a speaker. They just take the analog signal. It's really just an electromagnet that moves a cone that vibrates and pushes air around.
Scaevolus 2y ago
Do the speakers require the Content-Type header to be set? If not, POST wouldn't require CORS permissions.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  They do require the Content-Type header
KolmogorovComp 2y ago
This begs the question, why buy oversized speakers of which you can only use 10% of the range instead of smaller speakers? Is the sound quality better when not approaching to maximum volume?
- poisonborz 2y ago
  You can't buy quality sounding speakers without them being high powered.
  - KolmogorovComp 2y ago
    Do you mean physically, or as in there's no market for high-quality low-powered ones?
    - poisonborz 2y ago
      Both. To fill a larger room with enough balanced sound with all types of music implies enough headroom that most of the time it will be overpowered. Also everybody would take a mostly overpowered speaker over a sometimes underpowered one. The "small quality speakers" category is filled by decent bluetooth speakers and a few pc/desktop 2.0 models.
- dsr_ 2y ago
  These are complexly related parameters. All else being equal: - a larger enclosed volume produces lower frequencies more efficiently - a larger Xmax (range of motion) on a conventional driver produces louder sound - a smaller Xmax produces less distortion - a larger driver area produces louder sound - a larger driver area can produce more distortion unless the engineering compensates for that, which usually involves more expense in materials and assembly - the more efficiently coupled a driver is with the room air, the less distortion results - there are several ways to improve the coupling of a driver to the room air, all of which increase one or more of cost or complexity or size - larger and/or more complex cabinets cost more than smaller and simpler ones - adding drivers to a speaker increases complexity If we had perfect materials, we might build a single driver speaker made of infinitely stiff material of zero mass that accelerates/decelerates infinitely quickly in response to exactly enough power to overcome air pressure, and the parameters we would still have to tweak would be size (to control maximum sound pressure level) and whether we wanted to place it in front of an infinitely sound-absorbing back wall (to change it from an omnidirectional source to a cardioid source). We don't have any of those things, so for a given budget of price, size, parts availability and complexity we need to make tradeoffs to get to our targets for loudness and quality; not all targets can be reached from a given constraint. TL;DR: yes.
somat 2y ago
On my todo list is to build my own set of network attached speakers. superficially, it does not appear too hard, that is, seemingly possible for even my very limited mechanical integration skills. BOM: a halfway nice powered speaker with an integral amp and a single board computer. mount the sbc onto the speaker. then use a audio server to ship the sound around. I am a huge obsd fanboy so I would use sndiod but the linux ones(pipewire?) would probably be better for the task. The main thing stopping me from doing it is that it turns out I dislike dumping sound into the atmosphere, nothing wrong with it, I just don't enjoy blasting music. so I just stick to my headphones, and think about it once in a while.
bhavyagg90 2y ago
[flagged]
christina97 2y ago
For those considering buying speakers: (1) do it, (2) get passive ones and a separate amp. Honestly it’s such a mature market that buying these active speakers just creates e-waste. Keep the e-waste to the amp. You can get really solid speakers for $300 and a cheap amp with BT for $50-100, replacing them basically independently depending on your needs.
- Mo3 2y ago
  Which speakers would you recommend in that price range?
  - alfanick 2y ago
    I would recommend some older B&W (Bowers & Wilkins) from 6xx or DM6xx series. You can find them cheap on eBay etc, I use those since 15 years and cannot complain.
  - stereo 2y ago
    The most expensive boxes you can afford from Canton. Or buy second hand - they will sound like new. But speakers are something very subjective, and while I’m still delighted with the Canton I got for a discount, your ear might prefer something different. This is something where comparing in a physical store with a passionate salesperson can be worth it.
- squarefoot 2y ago
  Quality active speakers very rarely break, but one should buy them from studio gear (e)shops instead of the nearest mall. I totally agree on other gimmicks that would add single points of failure and should be kept out.
- Endurancee 2y ago
  Quality of active speakers are really good these days, they have matched amps and speakers from neumann, genelec etc also has active crossover which is superior than any passive setup. Mature market sure, but even companies like KEF who didn't offered or focussed much on active systems, have growing range of options now.
nubinetwork 2y ago
My cheap bestbuy tv is the same way... 0-100, and anything above 10 is extremely loud...
tokendem 2y ago
[flagged]
kefabean 2y ago
In a similar vein, I was delighted to discover that my rather elderly Audiolab M-DAC (used as a pre-amp) exposes its master volume control over USB digital input when plugged into a RPi. Although I don't use USB for audio (rather buggy) the control interface works perfectly. I duly created a websockets API that allows me to remotely control the volume over wifi via a phsyical rotary controller. Allows me to conceal all the hifi equipment in a cupboard upstairs but remotely control it from a knob downstairs in the kitchen. Like the OP I also implemented volume limits to prevent accidental damage to the speakers (primarily from twiddles by little fingers)....works a treat!
illusive4080 2y ago
I struggled with volume control on my computer, it’s always too coarse. I found out that you can hold Option+Shift when pressing the volume button on Mac to do more fine grained adjustments.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  Wow I had no idea that this was possible, thanks!
jitl 2y ago
Pro-tip for embedding JS in an HTML string in a Typescript file: you can get full typecheck etc for your embedded JS snippet if you write it as a top-level function in your file, and then interpolate the function into your template. This works because function.toString() in modern runtimes gives you back fully parse-able input source. You need to make sure you don’t reference anything outside the function, but it’s generally nicer overall than JS-in-string. Then you treat it as an IIFE. Example: function globalJS() { document.write('hi') } const html = `<script>(${globalJS})()</script>` I use this technique for calling AppleScript-flavored-JS from NodeJS too.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  > This works because function.toString() in modern runtimes gives you back fully parse-able input source. TIL - that is good to know. I'll probably leave the post as-is but I will use that in the future.
- me_vinayakakv 2y ago
  Funnily, I had a backend function that used `window`, which was then sent to frontend in this way. I think the project's tsconfig `lib` included `dom` for it to work. Overall a nice technique!
magxnta 2y ago
I have this issue with my Echo next to my bed. Even on vol 1 it’s too loud for me. So, instead of using the Spotify alexa skill, I have to use my phone and connect it via bluetooth, so I can turn down the volume on my phone in addition to using the quietest volume on the Echo.
tgtweak 2y ago
Can anyone recommend a good open source software that allows you to cast using all the popular protocols to an rpi? Feels like the "smart" part of these smart speakers and devices seems to be what dies first. I've got a 4 year old pioneer receiver that has built in Chromecast and it simply stopped working (likely deprecated API/sdk) with no updates to fix it. Likewise there's tons of great amplifiers and receivers/speakers out there that could easily be updated to support modern streaming and speaker aggregation with minimal e-waste. My favorite "smart" speaker in the house is a very old (~20 years) Altec Lansing 2.1 speaker kit that has a (sadly now discontinued) Chromecast audio plugged into it's headphone in. Edit: found this which looks to fit the bill - https://github.com/balena-io-experimental/balena-sound https://github.com/balena-io-experimental/balena-sound
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  If you end up looking for a product that does this rather than building it yourself, I've had a good experience with the WiiM Mini: https://wiimhome.com/wiimmini/overview https://wiimhome.com/wiimmini/overview
msephton 2y ago
Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and... Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten? Nigel Tufnel: Exactly. Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder? Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? Marty DiBergi: I don't know. Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven. Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder. Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven. - This Is Spinal Tap (1984)
JustinAiken 2y ago
I clicked on this article with so much excitement and hope… ah darn, not my speaker. Sonos volume control remains broken in their new (forced) app update, “reasonable control” on the roadmap for two months out
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

287 points by jamesbvaughan 2y ago

I know it is tangential, but this about his old system caught my attention: With that system, I could set the amplifier’s analog volume knob such that the max volume out of the streamer corresponded to my actual maximum preferred listening volume, giving me access to the full range of Spotify or AirPlay’s volume controls. Assuming an analog input, this might result in a noticable quality reduction at low volumes.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
In this case, I was using the optical out from a WiiM mini into a Yamaha amp. I don't know much about digital audio, but I know that I was able to control the volume of the WiiM's digital output with that setup. On the other hand, I use a Schiit Asgard at my desk, where I have it connected to my Mac via USB-C. In that setup, I have no control over the volume level going in to the Asgard. MacOS just disables the software volume control when I'm using that audio output.
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  I think for a WiiM mini to control the volume on the digital output, it would need to scale down every sample. This is probably fine over some range (it has a 24 bit output, so putting the volume at two thirds, would still result in 16 bits, the same as CD). But I'm curious what would happen at very low volumes, e.g. if you're down to only 4 bits.
  - mattclarkdotnet 2y ago
    Each bit is ~6dB, so 2/3 perceived volume is still 23 bits. 8 bits is 48dB, which is less than 1% of the original volume, and still using 16 bits
    - TylerE 2y ago
      And this is why all computer audio should be 24 bit internally. A lot of the newer pro apps are actually using 32 bit floats
  - rahimnathwani 2y ago
    Too late to edit my original comments. I am clearly mistaken about the relationship between amplitude and perceived loudness.
hunter2_ 2y ago
Reducing excessively before the DAC and high gain after the DAC is far more likely to result in quality reduction, due to quantization error. Having reasonable levels before the DAC and just the right amount of gain after the DAC (e.g., via an amplifier's attenuator setting) is the best possible scenario. So TFA's prior setup may have been superior in this regard, depending on how the digital volume control on the new speakers is implemented (i.e., before the DAC, or as a VCA after the DAC). Where this breaks down is if the analog signal path (after the DAC) consists of something noisy after the attenuator. Passive attenuation (like built into an amp, or the master fader of a mixer, etc.) won't add noise, but something active like an outboard EQ would. The attenuation to set desired max level must be completely last (before power amp) to avoid noise.
- jeffbee 2y ago
  We really don't want to be touching the digital signal. The state of the art is to change the DAC reference level, putting the DAC output at the sweet spot for the analog stage for any given ultimate output level.
AceJohnny2 2y ago
Tangential fun fact: amps have a fixed gain, because it's hard to make a variable gain without distortion [1]. The volume knob doesn't control amplification, in fact it controls an attenuation stage, because it's easier to make variable attenuation with low distortion. [1] that's why there were so many different "classes" of amps, they're all making different tradeoffs about how they're doing the amplification.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  That helps explain why the "volume" as represented on disk in the debug bundle as "attenuation" and was measured in negative dB.
- rahimnathwani 2y ago
  According to Claude, the attenuation stage is before the power amp stage. Does that mean worse SNR whether the volume is controlled using the volume control or via the input? (Ignoring the additional quantization issue with a scaled digital input.)
  - kevin_thibedeau 2y ago
    Class D doesn't have any attenuation. This is a big factor in their greater efficiency.
  - dreamcompiler 2y ago
    You could put the attenuation stage after the power amp stage but it would require big beefy resistors that could absorb a lot of power. They'd get hot and the whole thing would be very inefficient. But hey, very low distortion.

kogir 2y ago

While I’m all for physical controls, especially ones that self-adjust to reflect the state of the remote device at all times, I wonder if the author just doesn’t know you can finely adjust volume in iOS control center by force/long pressing and then dragging.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
This is a great point! When I'm using AirPlay, that feature is really useful. I'm more often using Spotify Connect though, where I'm limited to either using the physical volume buttons on my phone, the small slider in the desktop app, or the slider that's many clicks in to the Spotify mobile app. In reality though, this project is more about the fun of it than about it being a really pressing need.
- EthicalSimilar 2y ago
  It also works when using Spotify Connect on your iOS device. If you can use your volume buttons to control it you can also adjust it with the slider in the control centre.
  - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
    You're correct, TIL! That's really helpful to know. At this point though, I'm excited enough to build a volume knob that I'll probably still do it. edit: After trying this out it a bit, it's definitely an improvement over the small sliders and a huge improvement over the stepped volume changes from the buttons, but I'm still left wishing I could make use of more than ~10% of the slider's full range.
- swyx 2y ago
  spotify has so many user hostile practices that I am completely mystified why the majority of the population seems to prefer them in a world where youtube music exists.
  - jamesbvaughan 2y ago

xyst 2y ago

Why do speakers even expose a web api in the first place? It’s just easily available without any security? Hope this person segmented this device away from other devices. The lack of basic security in the IoT space is astounding to me.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
It is concerning. On this particular model, it's available over plain HTTP, provides no auth settings, and provides an easy input for uploading new firmware. https://jamesbvaughan.com/volume-controller-1/basic-web-interface.png https://jamesbvaughan.com/volume-controller-1/basic-web-inte...
giraffe_lady 2y ago
“The S in IoT stands for secure.”
denysvitali 2y ago
I was looking for this comment. Basically he managed to get a sort of unauthenticated R/W access to the file system. This is really concerning

kopirgan 2y ago

This runs in your laptop? Very interesting.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
For now, yes. I'd also like to make a standalone wireless physical volume knob and I may try to make an iPhone app for it. Ideally I'd be able to override the behavior of the volume buttons, similar to how Spotify is able to do that on iPhones when you're using Spotify Connect.

jamesbfb 2y ago

That position of the couch infuriating! And yes I bet you moved that lovely looking couch back after the photo :)

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
Don't worry - that couch isn't for listening :) I've got a very comfy and intentionally positioned chair on the other side of the room for that.

dkga 2y ago

I love this type of posts, and I’m amazed the speaker exposes its API like this. The kid in me thinks there could also be a way perhaps to transmit audio through this (or another) API? (very low chance, but…)

sigseg1v 2y ago
From his filesystem listing in the post it looks like you can overwrite firmware update data. I wouldn't be surprised if you can make it play or capture whatever you want be overwriting the firmware.

NixCald 2y ago

Fantastic, this could be iterated on by setting it up as a custom airplay speaker with re-mapped volume thresholds. https://github.com/mikebrady/shairport-sync https://github.com/mikebrady/shairport-sync

rectang 2y ago

> Those methods either give me a tiny slider that I can only use 10% of or about 15 steps where the jump from step 3 to step 4 takes the speakers from “a bit too quiet” to “definitely bothering the neighbors” levels. Volume controls need to be logarithmic, not linear. To a first degree approximation, everybody gets this wrong.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
TheNewAndy 2y ago
Volume controls also shouldn't just be a flat wideband gain - they should respect how we actually perceive sound so the timbre doesn't change as the level changes (when you turn the volume down, you are typically left with just the stuff in the vocal frequency range, and lose all the bass etc). Doing this stuff well is pretty hard (e.g. designing filters that can do that kind of volume adjustment is hard because you want to be constantly adjusting them, which means you need to be super careful with your filter state) but I have heard what it sounds like, and once you hear it you get angry at all other volume controls.
- jamesbvaughan 2y ago
  > Volume controls also shouldn't just be a flat wideband gain - they should respect how we actually perceive sound so the timbre doesn't change as the level changes (when you turn the volume down, you are typically left with just the stuff in the vocal frequency range, and lose all the bass etc). The amp I'm upgrading from was interesting in this regard. In addition to the main volume knob, it had a loudness knob. The manual actually recommended keeping the volume knob fixed most of the time and using the loudness knob to set the listening level throughout the day. From the manual: > 1. Set the LOUDNESS control to the FLAT position. > 2. Rotate the VOLUME control on the front panel (or press VOLUME +/– on the remote control) to set the sound output level to the loudest listening level that you would listen to. > 3. Rotate the LOUDNESS control counterclockwise until the desired volume is obtained.
  - 2y ago

hilbert42 2y ago

I wish someone would solve the opposite problem in PCs and laptops—that of too little audio gain. Designers never leave any gain in reserve for when audio input levels are too low. Why do they do this? The problem is so obvious that you'd reckon they're doing it to deliberately annoy users. The problem doesn't stop there, the lack of gain with Bluetooth is notorious. Almost every Bluetooth device I own has insufficient gain, franky it's a damn nuisance. The audio in the two sound bars that I own is so low on some audio material that I'm thinking of pulling them apart to see if I can find an op amp and increase its feedback resistor to obtain more gain. I should NOT have to do this. Let me give you an example, the audio levels on many YouTube videos can be all over the place. Often the audio can be 6 to 10 dB below what it ought to be, thus it's impossible to listen on a laptop's speakers, especially so when one is listening in a location where the background noise is high. What's wrong with the designers who design this digital stuff, don't they ever use the equipment themselves? Haven't they ever seen a traditional radio or HiFi where the volume potentiometer is off at the 7 o'clock position, 12 noon is the maximum volume with a nominal one volt input signal or a radio station that's using normal levels of modulation, and the reserve gain is the range from the noon position to the 5PM one? Do I have to say it again? The reserve gain is for when the input signal is lower that it ought to be. The world is not ideal, audio signals can be far from ideal—even from high tech companies like Google. Occasionally help comes along, VLC has settings that allow the gain to be set to over 100℅ but I've often had situations where even VLC hasn't had the necessary reserve. I've come to the conclusion the designers and programmers of this digital equipment haven't a clue about how ordinary amplifiers work. Or they have never taken the trouble to find out. They just assume a 16-bit input has 65536 levels and that's the range. Full stop! They never give consideration to what happens when the peak audio input covers perhaps less than one third that range of bits. To get enough volume I've even had to use the audio equalizer, that's when one has been available, and often there is not. To get the extra gain I slide all sliders to maximum. Having to do this frequently is an ergonomic nightmare. This is what happens when the arrogant digital world is too prowd to take a leaf out of the analog world—the world that managed to get these issues right about a century or more ago.

marshray 2y ago
> Why do they do this? So they don't damage users' speakers, their hearing, or generally cause annoyance. > They just assume a 16-bit input has 65536 levels and that's the range. Full stop! They never give consideration to what happens when the peak audio input covers perhaps less than one third that range of bits. 1/3 of 65536 is still +-11,000 voltage levels, or 14.4 bits of information. That's a really good place for a signal to be! It leaves a bit (literally) of room for the peaks without clipping. Now if you meant 1/3 of 16 bits = 5.3 bits of information, that is indeed a poorly recorded signal. +-20 voltage levels. It's going to sound terrible whether you boost it digitally or analogly. (is that a word?)

Jerrrrrrry 2y ago

// Yes, this is JavaScript embedded in HTML embedded in TypeScript. // I only recently learned that you can reference elements by ID this way. // It's kind of horrible but also I love it on tiny pages like this. You have to kind of embrace the duality of every moment. -Spencer Dinwiddie

whynotmaybe 2y ago

You could check the m5stack dial for your next step. A rotary knob with an integrated esp32. https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smart-rotary-knob-w-1-28-round-touch-screen https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smar...

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
ooh, thanks for this. I will check that out!

laurencei 2y ago

Hey OP - if your thinking about a smart knob with haptic feedback etc - check this open source project out that you can build yourself - its amazing: https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob Video demo here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA&t=1s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA&t=1s

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
That seems like it could be perfect. Thanks!
taneq 2y ago
Oh man, this has been on my to-build list for ages, right up there with the 6 axis “3D mouse” build. I love the attention to detail.
- stavros 2y ago
  I made a SpaceMouse the other day, it was really easy, mostly just the print. It took around an hour to assemble everything, I think? It also worked very well.
  - RobotCaleb 2y ago
    Which one did you make?
    - stavros 2y ago
      This one is my make: https://www.printables.com/model/908684-spacemouse-mini-slim-profile-with-easier-assembly/comments/1860785 https://www.printables.com/model/908684-spacemouse-mini-slim...
      - RobotCaleb 2y ago
        Very cool. Thank you!

possibleworlds 2y ago

Nice speakers! I'm guessing the model, if correct here are some spins for those interested https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_4329p/ https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/jbl_4329p/ Weird you can't limit digital output. I also listen mostly at low volumes and have the same issue. Part of the reason I chose Sonos is this is built in across all products, alongside an effective loudness toggle. This has been particularly helpful with some little Genelec 8010s I use as desktop speakers plugged into a Sonos Port.

gregoryl 2y ago
How are you going with the new Sonos app upgrade?
- possibleworlds 2y ago
  Perfectly fine, I actually prefer it in almost every way. The only issue I agree is truly serious is the latest release draining battery on iOS with or without background activity disabled. That’s a real bad bug to introduce and I’m surprised it hasn’t been fixed yet.

Dwedit 2y ago

What the hell browser makers... Make it so that file:// URLS are extremely locked down and doesn't have enough rights to even fetch files in the same directory (or even itself), yet grant localhost URLs full permissions... There's a reason why local web applications aren't a collection of HTML and JS files, and are instead full copies of the Chromium browser.

NavinF 2y ago
What are you talking about? The OP made requests from his Bun server. CORS would obviously break any request made directly from js in the browser
cyanmagenta 2y ago
The difference is that file:// URLs can be opened by your grandparent opening a .html file that they downloaded, whereas http://localhost http://localhost requires you to actually set up a web server. Imagine double-clicking a malicious page.html and suddenly your entire Documents folder can be fetched and manipulated by JavaScript. Yikes. But to your latter point, yeah, there’s no reason sandboxed web apps couldn’t be given better file:// permissions.
- recursive 2y ago
  This drives me nuts. <script src> works on file, but <script type=module src> does not. In order to use ESM imports from file:// you have to load the scripts from blob:// URLs. It seems crazy to me.

ly 2y ago

I think the article incorrectly states that KEF is owned by Harman, I can only find evidence on the contrary.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
It seems that you’re correct! I’m not sure what led me to believe that. I’ll update the post when I get home later. edit: fixed I dug into the API similarities between the speakers more and it seems like they're both using this software called StreamSDK [1]. I hadn't heard of that and it's given me more to research on these. [1] https://www.streamunlimited.com/stream-sdk/ https://www.streamunlimited.com/stream-sdk/

doctorvaughan 2y ago

I love this. Thanks for posting. Your Father and Mother must be very proud of you.

saagarjha 2y ago
Are you perhaps related to the author?

radicality 2y ago

Seems like the author moved from a “speakers + networked amp” setup, to a one where with active speakers where everything is built-in. When I was buying speakers for my apartment some time ago, I was similarly considering going for the all-in-one options like this, but I’m glad I didn’t. I prefer the “dumb passive speaker + networked amp”, as it allows you to pick / replace / upgrade the separate components. Went for the KEF LS50, and for the amp Lyngdorf TDAI-1120. And that’s despite KEF having the all-in-one active version of those speakers. Very happy with my choices!

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
> Seems like the author moved from a “speakers + networked amp” setup, to a one where with active speakers where everything is built-in. Close! I moved from a "speakers + non-networked amp + streamer" setup. I'm still running separate components for nearer-field listening at my desk, where I've got KEF Q150s powered by a small Schiit pre-amp and amp.
- radicality 2y ago
  Nice! I don't have any Schiit gear, but few months ago I started reading the founders book 'Schiit Happened'. I got halfway through (and then got distracted by other books, need to pick it back up), but can definitely recommend it for anyone interested in audio, and especially if you already have some Schiit!
  - jamesbvaughan 2y ago
    Oh cool, I wasn't aware of the book but I'll check it out.
iamacyborg 2y ago
I have the “wireless” powered kef ls50 and the regular ones. The wireless model has significantly better bass response and sounds much better to my ear. I actually had a fault with them recently and they stopped working, I’d bought the speakers used on ebay and even had I had a warranty they were past 5 years old by the point the fault developed. Regardless, kef repaired them entirely for free. 10/10 would buy again.

torphedo 2y ago

Wow, I never thought speakers would connect to the network, let alone be running Linux and a webserver for a hidden interface. Honestly, I thought speakers still weren't any more complicated than "convert this digital signal into a signal playable by the driver" with a volume knob.

batch12 2y ago
The digital to analog conversion is even complicated for a speaker. They just take the analog signal. It's really just an electromagnet that moves a cone that vibrates and pushes air around.

Scaevolus 2y ago

Do the speakers require the Content-Type header to be set? If not, POST wouldn't require CORS permissions.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
They do require the Content-Type header

KolmogorovComp 2y ago

This begs the question, why buy oversized speakers of which you can only use 10% of the range instead of smaller speakers? Is the sound quality better when not approaching to maximum volume?

poisonborz 2y ago
You can't buy quality sounding speakers without them being high powered.
- KolmogorovComp 2y ago
  Do you mean physically, or as in there's no market for high-quality low-powered ones?
  - poisonborz 2y ago
    Both. To fill a larger room with enough balanced sound with all types of music implies enough headroom that most of the time it will be overpowered. Also everybody would take a mostly overpowered speaker over a sometimes underpowered one. The "small quality speakers" category is filled by decent bluetooth speakers and a few pc/desktop 2.0 models.
dsr_ 2y ago
These are complexly related parameters. All else being equal: - a larger enclosed volume produces lower frequencies more efficiently - a larger Xmax (range of motion) on a conventional driver produces louder sound - a smaller Xmax produces less distortion - a larger driver area produces louder sound - a larger driver area can produce more distortion unless the engineering compensates for that, which usually involves more expense in materials and assembly - the more efficiently coupled a driver is with the room air, the less distortion results - there are several ways to improve the coupling of a driver to the room air, all of which increase one or more of cost or complexity or size - larger and/or more complex cabinets cost more than smaller and simpler ones - adding drivers to a speaker increases complexity If we had perfect materials, we might build a single driver speaker made of infinitely stiff material of zero mass that accelerates/decelerates infinitely quickly in response to exactly enough power to overcome air pressure, and the parameters we would still have to tweak would be size (to control maximum sound pressure level) and whether we wanted to place it in front of an infinitely sound-absorbing back wall (to change it from an omnidirectional source to a cardioid source). We don't have any of those things, so for a given budget of price, size, parts availability and complexity we need to make tradeoffs to get to our targets for loudness and quality; not all targets can be reached from a given constraint. TL;DR: yes.

somat 2y ago

On my todo list is to build my own set of network attached speakers. superficially, it does not appear too hard, that is, seemingly possible for even my very limited mechanical integration skills. BOM: a halfway nice powered speaker with an integral amp and a single board computer. mount the sbc onto the speaker. then use a audio server to ship the sound around. I am a huge obsd fanboy so I would use sndiod but the linux ones(pipewire?) would probably be better for the task. The main thing stopping me from doing it is that it turns out I dislike dumping sound into the atmosphere, nothing wrong with it, I just don't enjoy blasting music. so I just stick to my headphones, and think about it once in a while.

bhavyagg90 2y ago

[flagged]

christina97 2y ago

For those considering buying speakers: (1) do it, (2) get passive ones and a separate amp. Honestly it’s such a mature market that buying these active speakers just creates e-waste. Keep the e-waste to the amp. You can get really solid speakers for $300 and a cheap amp with BT for $50-100, replacing them basically independently depending on your needs.

Mo3 2y ago
Which speakers would you recommend in that price range?
- alfanick 2y ago
  I would recommend some older B&W (Bowers & Wilkins) from 6xx or DM6xx series. You can find them cheap on eBay etc, I use those since 15 years and cannot complain.
- stereo 2y ago
  The most expensive boxes you can afford from Canton. Or buy second hand - they will sound like new. But speakers are something very subjective, and while I’m still delighted with the Canton I got for a discount, your ear might prefer something different. This is something where comparing in a physical store with a passionate salesperson can be worth it.
squarefoot 2y ago
Quality active speakers very rarely break, but one should buy them from studio gear (e)shops instead of the nearest mall. I totally agree on other gimmicks that would add single points of failure and should be kept out.
Endurancee 2y ago
Quality of active speakers are really good these days, they have matched amps and speakers from neumann, genelec etc also has active crossover which is superior than any passive setup. Mature market sure, but even companies like KEF who didn't offered or focussed much on active systems, have growing range of options now.

nubinetwork 2y ago

My cheap bestbuy tv is the same way... 0-100, and anything above 10 is extremely loud...

tokendem 2y ago

[flagged]

kefabean 2y ago

In a similar vein, I was delighted to discover that my rather elderly Audiolab M-DAC (used as a pre-amp) exposes its master volume control over USB digital input when plugged into a RPi. Although I don't use USB for audio (rather buggy) the control interface works perfectly. I duly created a websockets API that allows me to remotely control the volume over wifi via a phsyical rotary controller. Allows me to conceal all the hifi equipment in a cupboard upstairs but remotely control it from a knob downstairs in the kitchen. Like the OP I also implemented volume limits to prevent accidental damage to the speakers (primarily from twiddles by little fingers)....works a treat!

illusive4080 2y ago

I struggled with volume control on my computer, it’s always too coarse. I found out that you can hold Option+Shift when pressing the volume button on Mac to do more fine grained adjustments.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
Wow I had no idea that this was possible, thanks!

jitl 2y ago

Pro-tip for embedding JS in an HTML string in a Typescript file: you can get full typecheck etc for your embedded JS snippet if you write it as a top-level function in your file, and then interpolate the function into your template. This works because function.toString() in modern runtimes gives you back fully parse-able input source. You need to make sure you don’t reference anything outside the function, but it’s generally nicer overall than JS-in-string. Then you treat it as an IIFE. Example: function globalJS() { document.write('hi') } const html = `<script>(${globalJS})()</script>` I use this technique for calling AppleScript-flavored-JS from NodeJS too.

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
> This works because function.toString() in modern runtimes gives you back fully parse-able input source. TIL - that is good to know. I'll probably leave the post as-is but I will use that in the future.
me_vinayakakv 2y ago
Funnily, I had a backend function that used `window`, which was then sent to frontend in this way. I think the project's tsconfig `lib` included `dom` for it to work. Overall a nice technique!

magxnta 2y ago

I have this issue with my Echo next to my bed. Even on vol 1 it’s too loud for me. So, instead of using the Spotify alexa skill, I have to use my phone and connect it via bluetooth, so I can turn down the volume on my phone in addition to using the quietest volume on the Echo.

tgtweak 2y ago

Can anyone recommend a good open source software that allows you to cast using all the popular protocols to an rpi? Feels like the "smart" part of these smart speakers and devices seems to be what dies first. I've got a 4 year old pioneer receiver that has built in Chromecast and it simply stopped working (likely deprecated API/sdk) with no updates to fix it. Likewise there's tons of great amplifiers and receivers/speakers out there that could easily be updated to support modern streaming and speaker aggregation with minimal e-waste. My favorite "smart" speaker in the house is a very old (~20 years) Altec Lansing 2.1 speaker kit that has a (sadly now discontinued) Chromecast audio plugged into it's headphone in. Edit: found this which looks to fit the bill - https://github.com/balena-io-experimental/balena-sound https://github.com/balena-io-experimental/balena-sound

jamesbvaughan 2y ago
If you end up looking for a product that does this rather than building it yourself, I've had a good experience with the WiiM Mini: https://wiimhome.com/wiimmini/overview https://wiimhome.com/wiimmini/overview

msephton 2y ago

Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and... Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten? Nigel Tufnel: Exactly. Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder? Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where? Marty DiBergi: I don't know. Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do? Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven. Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder. Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder? Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven. - This Is Spinal Tap (1984)

JustinAiken 2y ago

I clicked on this article with so much excitement and hope… ah darn, not my speaker. Sonos volume control remains broken in their new (forced) app update, “reasonable control” on the roadmap for two months out

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]