5 ms·

I never understood the value proposition of Apple Maps. Can you imagine being the executive, deciding to create Apple Maps? "Ok, how much does it cost to buil

by throwaway2037 2y ago

I never understood the value proposition of Apple Maps. Can you imagine being the executive, deciding to create Apple Maps? "Ok, how much does it cost to build and maintain? $BIG NUMBER. What? No way. We'll never make it back by selling adverts on the map." And, still, they built it. We have heard many times on HN that Google Maps (virtually) throws money out the window to keep it running so smoothly. Just keeping all the transit info correct for suggesting routes must be a nightmare.

gnicholas 2y ago
I guess it gives them leverage vis a vis Google? I like that it tells me what lane to be in, so it's my main mapping app. Also presumably better privacy than Google Maps.
- jen729w 2y ago
  > Also presumably better privacy than Google Maps. Yeah you might say that. My Android-owning Irish mate got hammered one night. Had no idea where he’d been. We launched Google Maps and it had a GPS track of his entire night. Like a dotted map with every step he’d taken.
  - sofixa 2y ago
    Yeah, it's a feature enabled by default outside of the EU (in the EU it asks you if you want to enable it). Makes for some fun stats/recaps, and is useful for tracing back steps (wait, where was that awesome store/restaurant/park/whatever we went to while on a trip to XYZ?) at the expense of Google knowing a lot about you.
  - saagarjha 2y ago
    iPhone does this too, though the location data doesn’t leave your phone unless you share it with an app that does that.
    - nytesky 2y ago
      On iPhone I only see Signifcant Locations; on my phone I only see a list of 3 places (despite 400 records). Compared to Google Timeline it’s much more curtailed function.
    - em500 2y ago
      Google intends to do the same by end of this year: https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/5/24172204/google-maps-delete-location-history-timeline https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/5/24172204/google-maps-delet...
- sofixa 2y ago
  > I like that it tells me what lane to be in, so it's my main mapping app. Google maps does that too.
clumsysmurf 2y ago
I'm guessing they want to give people an advert-free experience for such a basic function as finding directions and driving a route: https://www.androidauthority.com/google-maps-pop-up-ad-3458170/ https://www.androidauthority.com/google-maps-pop-up-ad-34581...
h2onock 2y ago
Whilst I agree with what you say I'm so grateful for Apple Maps simply on the grounds that I try and use Google products as little as possible. Things like Apple Maps keep me in the Apple ecosystem as they add value to my life. I wouldn't use Apple CarPlay either if I had to use Google Maps (granted, I know Waze and others also exist).
- systemtest 2y ago
  Have a look at TomTom for iOS. It's paid but in my opinion far superior to Google Maps and Waze.
ein0p 2y ago
Maps are core technology, which Apple prefers to own. Imagine wanting to release CarPlay (or a full blown car) and Google having you by the balls over maps and navigation. That wouldn't be a good situation. As to $BIG_NUMBER, they seem to be managing fine - Maps sucked pretty bad when it came out, but it doesn't suck now, I prefer it to Google Maps where I live.
vineyardmike 2y ago
It's defensive, (and it was built at a time when money was free). The iPhone launched with Google Maps. Then Google decided to push feature updates skewed towards android phones, leaving iPhone users behind. Apple saw that a vendor could screw their users over (and potentially cause defectors), and decided to invest to ensure they don't have a dependancy. The best part is that they can now offer it to App Store developers as a free iOS SDK (and paid API on web). Meanwhile the same developers would have to pay an exorbitant cost to use Google Maps. It's part of the moat that makes iOS the more profitable platform to develop for. You can also see this playbook with the release of free Weather APIs. Yea Apple/Google maps has to be expensive to build and maintain, but at least for apple, they were able to buy their way to bootstrapping the map. What's impressed me is all the fly-over and custom 3D modeling they've done. It does really feel like they just wanted to make a good map at some point, even beyond what people needed or expected. That said, mapping products probably has good caching and fault tolerance you can design in to reduce cost - maps don't go out of sync that fast (for caching) and you'd never know if their "suggested routes" data was out of date occasionally, because you can never drive both routes at once.
- InvisibleToast 2y ago
  > The best part is that they can now offer it to App Store developers as a free SDK. Meanwhile the same developers would have to pay an exorbitant cost to use Google Maps. Apple Mapkit is free up to 25K api call a day, after that you have to contact Apple for more (and pay I guess?).
- kalleboo 2y ago
  At the time, Google Maps on iOS was written by Apple, not Google, and Google was holding back API access for Street View until Apple sent back more location/tracking/demographic data on users that Google wanted. Rather than sell out their users, Apple dropped Google Maps as the backend and launched their own maps, and then let Google write their own Maps app where they could do anything they wanted.
Timshel 2y ago
Because it's like one of the most important app on your phone ? How many people would still buy an iPhone without Apple or Google maps ?
sksksk 2y ago
Maps is table stakes for a smartphone, and having such a key feature provided by your main competitor is a huge risk. So purely on that basis, it could be worth it. Then, on top of that, there is value in the data you're able to collect. Traffic data is really valuable. Tracking the movement of vehicles and pedestrians lets you create very accurate maps based on "real world" data, you could use it to figure out really specific things like traffic light timings, diversions, pedestrian crossings, parking space, layout of private roads... At one point, Apple was working on a car, if you were making a self driving car, all that data would be useful for you, and beacuse of the value of it, competitors may not even sell it to you. So your only option is to generate it yourself. As for transit data, that is fairly simple, most transit agencies will publish their timetables in GTFS format, there are tools to automatically export this in scheduling software. That will probably get your 90% of the way there, so you might have a few on the groud people in major cities to tweak and make it more accurate, which is nothing for a company on the scale of Apple.
- rob74 2y ago
  > Then, on top of that, there is value in the data you're able to collect. Traffic data is really valuable. Tracking the movement of vehicles and pedestrians [...] ...but then they decided to market themselves as "privacy-focused", so they can't really do that, right? Or are they actually doing it? > At one point, Apple was working on a car ...but then they killed the car project, so that goes out of the window too.
  - sksksk 2y ago
    Allegedly, Apple have built in privacy features so they can't associate individual users with routes, or know what the entire route is[1]. Apple does show traffic data in the app, so they obviously do collect the data somehow. When Apple built maps, the car project was still alive, so it would have been a factor in deciding on the investment. They could still partner with a car manufacturer and use the data. I do suspect that my first point was key in green lighting Apple Maps. Google could have asked for more and more money to provide maps for Apple, or they could pull out completely, and force users to use the App Store app, which would have left the product direction of Maps completely out of Apple's hands. [1] https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/03/13/apple-maps-navigation-privacy/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/03/13/apple-maps-navigati...
sorrythanks 2y ago
Apple's income doesn't come from adverts, it comes from selling iPhones
- veunes 2y ago
  Yet Apple Maps and other services play a crucial role in enhancing the value of Apple’s ecosystem
  - sorrythanks 2y ago
    Right, exactly! Improving Apple Maps is a good investment because it makes you: 1. less reliant on your worst competitor 2. get to give your users something everyone else has to pay for (with money or data)
- talldayo 2y ago
  Apple's income does come from advertising: https://searchads.apple.com/ https://searchads.apple.com/ Not all of it, but it's disingenuous to say Apple doesn't make money from ads.
  - sorrythanks 2y ago
    Sorry, i didn't mean to be disingenuous. i meant, ads are not the main source of its income. And in this context, that's why it is not a foolish choice to spend money on something that it's hard to sell ads on as long as it helps sell more iPhones.
  - matwood 2y ago
    "Not all of it" is doing a lot of work. It's estimated that Apple ad revenue will be ~2-3% of total revenue in 2024.
whatjadat2 2y ago
Your not being serious? It's a core app, and the amount of data they get out of it, makes it worth it.
andruby 2y ago
Google Maps had a total monopoly and Google could have leveraged that in the competition between Android and iOS. Maybe they even tried asking Apple for a lot of money to be able to use it on iOS. It takes years, even a decade to get maps to a good quality (Apple maps launched in 2012). So I think it's a good thing that Apple started early enough. I'm sure it's crazy expensive to build and maintain. Apple can fund it from iPhone sales, and ensure that their ecosystem has an alternative for Google maps. I don't think it's meant to turn a profit, I think it's meant as protection of their iPhone revenue.
- JKCalhoun 2y ago
  I was wondering what the fallout would be if businesses had to pay Google to include their business on Google Maps. Like, if McDonalds didn't pony up every year, they drop out of the list for Fast Food searches.
WhyNotHugo 2y ago
> I never understood the value proposition of Apple Maps. They ship their operating systems with all the "common" apps pre-installed (e.g.: Email, Calendar, Reminders, Notes, Maps, etc). For the maps to work, they need some data source. That's what Apple Maps is. Apple doesn't make money with the Email app directly, but its existence likely improves how users perceive iOS. This probably translates to return customers and more people recommending it.
- jon-wood 2y ago
  > Apple doesn't make money with the Email app directly, but its existence likely improves how users perceive iOS. I dunno, have you actually used Apple Mail?
  - askafriend 2y ago
    Yes and I prefer it over any other mail app.
yokoprime 2y ago
Privacy and a vastly better navigation experience is what makes me prefer Apple Maps for turn by turn nav. For finding local businesses Google Maps is better
e40 2y ago
Google Maps on iOS works terribly where I am. Current and previous phone. Going through the Caldecott tunnel would fast forward all the stops. Switched to Apple Maps and I’ve been very happy. Just a single glitch noticed (a light appears before a freeway onramp).
klausa 2y ago
One of the selling points of Apple devices is that their software is [1] just _nice_ to use, letting you do what you need to do, without having to keep you in and monetize you otherwise. Is Mail.app the most powerful client on earth? No; but it is Good Enough, and I don't have to download and pay for a third party app. Is Weather.app the best weather app with all the bells and whistles possible? No; but I don't care about weather apps to download and trial fifteen other ones and It Just Works. Maps are (orders of magnitude) more complicated; but arguably are also on the baseline level of functionality for a modern mobile OS. And Maps.app is just so much _nicer_ to use than Google Maps. It has the same problems that all Apple products like it does (search is atrocious, POI db is bad); but it is just a much more pleasant product. It looks nicer, it _feels_ nicer, it has best-in-class transit directions, and doesn't shove ads in front of my face. [1]: Arguably getting worse and worse at it every year; but still miles ahead of everyone else.
latexr 2y ago
The Maps application on iOS used to use Google Maps. But then Google started to collect too much user data and withholding features like turn-by-turn navigation (while making it available on Android). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps#Initial_release https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps#Initial_release Becoming independent from Google for such a core feature was an important move.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Not being dependent on Google for such a core feature in their phones makes it worth it for Apple.
danbee 2y ago
At the time Apple Maps came out, Google Maps on iOS was limited to bitmap tiles and had no turn by turn directions, whereas Google Maps on Android had both dynamic vector based maps and turn by turn directions. Apple Maps forced Google to improve Google Maps on iOS. Apple Maps data was definitely substandard when it was released, but it has improved considerably since then. I vastly prefer it to Google Maps, especially for turn by turn directions when I'm driving.
scarface_74 2y ago
Because you never want to be held hostage to a third party vendor for core technology. The entire reason that Apple Mapd was introduced a year early was that Google held back turn by turn directions on the iOS version of Google maps

gnicholas 2y ago

I guess it gives them leverage vis a vis Google? I like that it tells me what lane to be in, so it's my main mapping app. Also presumably better privacy than Google Maps.

jen729w 2y ago
> Also presumably better privacy than Google Maps. Yeah you might say that. My Android-owning Irish mate got hammered one night. Had no idea where he’d been. We launched Google Maps and it had a GPS track of his entire night. Like a dotted map with every step he’d taken.
- sofixa 2y ago
  Yeah, it's a feature enabled by default outside of the EU (in the EU it asks you if you want to enable it). Makes for some fun stats/recaps, and is useful for tracing back steps (wait, where was that awesome store/restaurant/park/whatever we went to while on a trip to XYZ?) at the expense of Google knowing a lot about you.
- saagarjha 2y ago
  iPhone does this too, though the location data doesn’t leave your phone unless you share it with an app that does that.
  - nytesky 2y ago
    On iPhone I only see Signifcant Locations; on my phone I only see a list of 3 places (despite 400 records). Compared to Google Timeline it’s much more curtailed function.
  - em500 2y ago
    Google intends to do the same by end of this year: https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/5/24172204/google-maps-delete-location-history-timeline https://www.theverge.com/2024/6/5/24172204/google-maps-delet...
sofixa 2y ago
> I like that it tells me what lane to be in, so it's my main mapping app. Google maps does that too.

clumsysmurf 2y ago

I'm guessing they want to give people an advert-free experience for such a basic function as finding directions and driving a route: https://www.androidauthority.com/google-maps-pop-up-ad-3458170/ https://www.androidauthority.com/google-maps-pop-up-ad-34581...

h2onock 2y ago

Whilst I agree with what you say I'm so grateful for Apple Maps simply on the grounds that I try and use Google products as little as possible. Things like Apple Maps keep me in the Apple ecosystem as they add value to my life. I wouldn't use Apple CarPlay either if I had to use Google Maps (granted, I know Waze and others also exist).

systemtest 2y ago
Have a look at TomTom for iOS. It's paid but in my opinion far superior to Google Maps and Waze.

ein0p 2y ago

Maps are core technology, which Apple prefers to own. Imagine wanting to release CarPlay (or a full blown car) and Google having you by the balls over maps and navigation. That wouldn't be a good situation. As to $BIG_NUMBER, they seem to be managing fine - Maps sucked pretty bad when it came out, but it doesn't suck now, I prefer it to Google Maps where I live.

vineyardmike 2y ago

It's defensive, (and it was built at a time when money was free). The iPhone launched with Google Maps. Then Google decided to push feature updates skewed towards android phones, leaving iPhone users behind. Apple saw that a vendor could screw their users over (and potentially cause defectors), and decided to invest to ensure they don't have a dependancy. The best part is that they can now offer it to App Store developers as a free iOS SDK (and paid API on web). Meanwhile the same developers would have to pay an exorbitant cost to use Google Maps. It's part of the moat that makes iOS the more profitable platform to develop for. You can also see this playbook with the release of free Weather APIs. Yea Apple/Google maps has to be expensive to build and maintain, but at least for apple, they were able to buy their way to bootstrapping the map. What's impressed me is all the fly-over and custom 3D modeling they've done. It does really feel like they just wanted to make a good map at some point, even beyond what people needed or expected. That said, mapping products probably has good caching and fault tolerance you can design in to reduce cost - maps don't go out of sync that fast (for caching) and you'd never know if their "suggested routes" data was out of date occasionally, because you can never drive both routes at once.

InvisibleToast 2y ago
> The best part is that they can now offer it to App Store developers as a free SDK. Meanwhile the same developers would have to pay an exorbitant cost to use Google Maps. Apple Mapkit is free up to 25K api call a day, after that you have to contact Apple for more (and pay I guess?).
kalleboo 2y ago
At the time, Google Maps on iOS was written by Apple, not Google, and Google was holding back API access for Street View until Apple sent back more location/tracking/demographic data on users that Google wanted. Rather than sell out their users, Apple dropped Google Maps as the backend and launched their own maps, and then let Google write their own Maps app where they could do anything they wanted.

Timshel 2y ago

Because it's like one of the most important app on your phone ? How many people would still buy an iPhone without Apple or Google maps ?

sksksk 2y ago

Maps is table stakes for a smartphone, and having such a key feature provided by your main competitor is a huge risk. So purely on that basis, it could be worth it. Then, on top of that, there is value in the data you're able to collect. Traffic data is really valuable. Tracking the movement of vehicles and pedestrians lets you create very accurate maps based on "real world" data, you could use it to figure out really specific things like traffic light timings, diversions, pedestrian crossings, parking space, layout of private roads... At one point, Apple was working on a car, if you were making a self driving car, all that data would be useful for you, and beacuse of the value of it, competitors may not even sell it to you. So your only option is to generate it yourself. As for transit data, that is fairly simple, most transit agencies will publish their timetables in GTFS format, there are tools to automatically export this in scheduling software. That will probably get your 90% of the way there, so you might have a few on the groud people in major cities to tweak and make it more accurate, which is nothing for a company on the scale of Apple.

rob74 2y ago
> Then, on top of that, there is value in the data you're able to collect. Traffic data is really valuable. Tracking the movement of vehicles and pedestrians [...] ...but then they decided to market themselves as "privacy-focused", so they can't really do that, right? Or are they actually doing it? > At one point, Apple was working on a car ...but then they killed the car project, so that goes out of the window too.
- sksksk 2y ago
  Allegedly, Apple have built in privacy features so they can't associate individual users with routes, or know what the entire route is[1]. Apple does show traffic data in the app, so they obviously do collect the data somehow. When Apple built maps, the car project was still alive, so it would have been a factor in deciding on the investment. They could still partner with a car manufacturer and use the data. I do suspect that my first point was key in green lighting Apple Maps. Google could have asked for more and more money to provide maps for Apple, or they could pull out completely, and force users to use the App Store app, which would have left the product direction of Maps completely out of Apple's hands. [1] https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/03/13/apple-maps-navigation-privacy/ https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/03/13/apple-maps-navigati...

sorrythanks 2y ago

Apple's income doesn't come from adverts, it comes from selling iPhones

veunes 2y ago
Yet Apple Maps and other services play a crucial role in enhancing the value of Apple’s ecosystem
- sorrythanks 2y ago
  Right, exactly! Improving Apple Maps is a good investment because it makes you: 1. less reliant on your worst competitor 2. get to give your users something everyone else has to pay for (with money or data)
talldayo 2y ago
Apple's income does come from advertising: https://searchads.apple.com/ https://searchads.apple.com/ Not all of it, but it's disingenuous to say Apple doesn't make money from ads.
- sorrythanks 2y ago
  Sorry, i didn't mean to be disingenuous. i meant, ads are not the main source of its income. And in this context, that's why it is not a foolish choice to spend money on something that it's hard to sell ads on as long as it helps sell more iPhones.
- matwood 2y ago
  "Not all of it" is doing a lot of work. It's estimated that Apple ad revenue will be ~2-3% of total revenue in 2024.

whatjadat2 2y ago

Your not being serious? It's a core app, and the amount of data they get out of it, makes it worth it.

andruby 2y ago

Google Maps had a total monopoly and Google could have leveraged that in the competition between Android and iOS. Maybe they even tried asking Apple for a lot of money to be able to use it on iOS. It takes years, even a decade to get maps to a good quality (Apple maps launched in 2012). So I think it's a good thing that Apple started early enough. I'm sure it's crazy expensive to build and maintain. Apple can fund it from iPhone sales, and ensure that their ecosystem has an alternative for Google maps. I don't think it's meant to turn a profit, I think it's meant as protection of their iPhone revenue.

JKCalhoun 2y ago
I was wondering what the fallout would be if businesses had to pay Google to include their business on Google Maps. Like, if McDonalds didn't pony up every year, they drop out of the list for Fast Food searches.

WhyNotHugo 2y ago

> I never understood the value proposition of Apple Maps. They ship their operating systems with all the "common" apps pre-installed (e.g.: Email, Calendar, Reminders, Notes, Maps, etc). For the maps to work, they need some data source. That's what Apple Maps is. Apple doesn't make money with the Email app directly, but its existence likely improves how users perceive iOS. This probably translates to return customers and more people recommending it.

jon-wood 2y ago
> Apple doesn't make money with the Email app directly, but its existence likely improves how users perceive iOS. I dunno, have you actually used Apple Mail?
- askafriend 2y ago
  Yes and I prefer it over any other mail app.

yokoprime 2y ago

Privacy and a vastly better navigation experience is what makes me prefer Apple Maps for turn by turn nav. For finding local businesses Google Maps is better

e40 2y ago

Google Maps on iOS works terribly where I am. Current and previous phone. Going through the Caldecott tunnel would fast forward all the stops. Switched to Apple Maps and I’ve been very happy. Just a single glitch noticed (a light appears before a freeway onramp).

klausa 2y ago

One of the selling points of Apple devices is that their software is [1] just _nice_ to use, letting you do what you need to do, without having to keep you in and monetize you otherwise. Is Mail.app the most powerful client on earth? No; but it is Good Enough, and I don't have to download and pay for a third party app. Is Weather.app the best weather app with all the bells and whistles possible? No; but I don't care about weather apps to download and trial fifteen other ones and It Just Works. Maps are (orders of magnitude) more complicated; but arguably are also on the baseline level of functionality for a modern mobile OS. And Maps.app is just so much _nicer_ to use than Google Maps. It has the same problems that all Apple products like it does (search is atrocious, POI db is bad); but it is just a much more pleasant product. It looks nicer, it _feels_ nicer, it has best-in-class transit directions, and doesn't shove ads in front of my face. [1]: Arguably getting worse and worse at it every year; but still miles ahead of everyone else.

latexr 2y ago

The Maps application on iOS used to use Google Maps. But then Google started to collect too much user data and withholding features like turn-by-turn navigation (while making it available on Android). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps#Initial_release https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Maps#Initial_release Becoming independent from Google for such a core feature was an important move.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

Not being dependent on Google for such a core feature in their phones makes it worth it for Apple.

danbee 2y ago

At the time Apple Maps came out, Google Maps on iOS was limited to bitmap tiles and had no turn by turn directions, whereas Google Maps on Android had both dynamic vector based maps and turn by turn directions. Apple Maps forced Google to improve Google Maps on iOS. Apple Maps data was definitely substandard when it was released, but it has improved considerably since then. I vastly prefer it to Google Maps, especially for turn by turn directions when I'm driving.

scarface_74 2y ago

Because you never want to be held hostage to a third party vendor for core technology. The entire reason that Apple Mapd was introduced a year early was that Google held back turn by turn directions on the iOS version of Google maps