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> I think the problem is that you were raised to think that a "good and just" world is one where there is no risk, no variability, and limited self-reliance. I
by jklinger410 2y ago
> I think the problem is that you were raised to think that a "good and just" world is one where there is no risk, no variability, and limited self-reliance.
I think that children are generally raised to not believe there is "risk" associated with listening to experts. This means specialists like Doctors but also politicians and military officials.
The idea that there could be a grift set up to take advantage of people in the medical space, for instance, which is highly regulated and supposed to be for the benefit of people first and for generating capital second, is not intuitive to children.
In fact a wide array of industries and services in the United States, and the world (to not be political, as some commenter said) are set up to take advantage of children or naive young adults.
Secondary education and student loans is a glaring example of this.
> The default state is for none of these services and protections to exist whatsoever
In all of human history this is mostly untrue. Humans have always formed societies, and those societies have always provided services for their people. In fact, before capitalism, most of these services were provided in-kind as a right of being a part of the tribe.
This idea that every person is born as an individual and nothing is granted to them belongs to a certain political ideology that is designed to make sure people feel entitled to nothing, and keep things in the private industry, and keep government small. But I digress.
Of course someone has to provide the service, and collect the materials for the service. And that person deserves to be compensated for that work. But the idea that the default state of a human is to be alone with nature and subject to pure individualism is simply not true, and never has been the norm, until that idea was used to justify not providing people with anything.
> Everything beyond nothing is an imperfect and unstable solution held together with duct-tape
This idea is also untrue. We've had a lot of time to perfect these things. If we can build skyscrapers and infrastructure to maintain them, we can provide these services. You are conflating political ideology and economic motivation with literal ability. The ability is absolutely there, and was in the past as well. There is something different going on that causes these systems to be "held together with duct-tape" and it's actually other humans actively trying to destroy these systems, not that they are impossible.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoI almost completely agree, and think we mainly disagree on the nuances. >The idea that there could be a grift set up to take advantage of people in the medical space, for instance, which is highly regulated and supposed to be for the benefit of people first and for generating capital second, is not intuitive to children. The first thing I wanted to touch on is the idea of grift. Just because some has their interests ahead of yours doesn't mean they are a grifter. I think the childish view is the expectation that other people put your interests above their own, like the selflessness of a loving parent. A doctor doesnt put your individual wellbeing above their own, but that doesnt make them a grifter or a bad person. Expecting that kind of selflessness is entirely unrealistic, and is what causes cognitive dissonance when it clashes with reality. Thats not to say that grifters dont exist, who actively manipulate and deceive, but simply having unrealistic expectations for something does not make it a grift. One example would when a doctor doesn't provide the depth of care and consideration the patient wants or would expect from a selfless caregiver. Most people come to the realization that they need to provide the drive and motivation for their own care, and doctors are just hired experts to help with things you cant do. You have to manage them and tell them what you want them to do. If you dont manage them like hired help, they will do very little indeed. >Humans have always formed societies, and those societies have always provided services for their people. In fact, before capitalism, most of these services were provided in-kind as a right of being a part of the tribe. This idea that every person is born as an individual and nothing is granted to them belongs to a certain political ideology that is designed to make sure people feel entitled to nothing, and keep things in the private industry, and keep government small. But I digress. I didnt mean to say that everyone is an island and forever alone. I mean that these things are not guaranteed entitlements, but conditional on human relations, standing, and mutual exchange. That is to say, they took work to maintain and were subject to constant scrutiny and mutual consent. Even in a tribe, goods and services were not provided unconditionally as some human birthright associated with tribal membership. Instead, they were conditional on good standing and mutual consent. >This idea is also untrue. We've had a lot of time to perfect these things. If we can build skyscrapers and infrastructure to maintain them, we can provide these services. You are conflating political ideology and economic motivation with literal ability. The ability is absolutely there, and was in the past as well. There is something different going on that causes these systems to be "held together with duct-tape" and it's actually other humans actively trying to destroy these systems, not that they are impossible. Im not arguing that beneficial institutions and functional societies are beyond human ability. Im saying their existence should not be taken for granted.
- dleink 2y agoThe quality of the American medical system has deteriorated to such a point that if the Doctors are not the grifters they may at least be culpable for enabling the grift.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoThat hasn't been my experience. I have never experienced or heard of a doctor deceiving or lying in real life. I dont think I can think of an example from hospitals either.
- jklinger410 2y agoMy dental surgeon refuses to design or install an implant. They will only put in the screw for the implant. Why? Because of a pyramid scheme. That might not be a direct "lie," but it is misleading. Doctors mislead constantly. They tend to accept norms that are harmful because they are systems outside of their control.
- nradov 2y agoI don't think you understand what a pyramid scheme is. There are some unethical providers who optimize for their own profit rather than the patient's best interests but those are a small minority. And it is entirely normal to separate implant design from installation; those things take different skills and equipment.
- s1artibartfast 2y agoI think there is a conflation occurring between harm and sub-optimal behavior (from your perspective). Is the doctor harmful or simply less helpful than you would like? Would you be better off with no dental work or healthcare? Zero harm is being done in this case IMO. If Im alone in the desert dying, I dont think others are harming me for my lack of water and food. That is simple neutrality and indifference.
- influx 2y ago