5 ms·

>I understand that some people would look at that list and say I should have never expected some of those, but pardon me for being propagandized at a very young

>I understand that some people would look at that list and say I should have never expected some of those, but pardon me for being propagandized at a very young age that we lived in a country that was good and just. That's my bad I think the problem is that you were raised to think that a "good and just" world is one where there is no risk, no variability, and limited self-reliance. This is a fiction and has never existed. The default state is for none of these services and protections to exist whatsoever. Everything beyond nothing is an imperfect and unstable solution held together with duct-tape.

xeromal 2y ago
Every day is a good day to be alive whether the sun is shining or not. I'm with you. One quick look at history shows nothing is set in stone and it can always get worse.
jklinger410 2y ago
> I think the problem is that you were raised to think that a "good and just" world is one where there is no risk, no variability, and limited self-reliance. I think that children are generally raised to not believe there is "risk" associated with listening to experts. This means specialists like Doctors but also politicians and military officials. The idea that there could be a grift set up to take advantage of people in the medical space, for instance, which is highly regulated and supposed to be for the benefit of people first and for generating capital second, is not intuitive to children. In fact a wide array of industries and services in the United States, and the world (to not be political, as some commenter said) are set up to take advantage of children or naive young adults. Secondary education and student loans is a glaring example of this. > The default state is for none of these services and protections to exist whatsoever In all of human history this is mostly untrue. Humans have always formed societies, and those societies have always provided services for their people. In fact, before capitalism, most of these services were provided in-kind as a right of being a part of the tribe. This idea that every person is born as an individual and nothing is granted to them belongs to a certain political ideology that is designed to make sure people feel entitled to nothing, and keep things in the private industry, and keep government small. But I digress. Of course someone has to provide the service, and collect the materials for the service. And that person deserves to be compensated for that work. But the idea that the default state of a human is to be alone with nature and subject to pure individualism is simply not true, and never has been the norm, until that idea was used to justify not providing people with anything. > Everything beyond nothing is an imperfect and unstable solution held together with duct-tape This idea is also untrue. We've had a lot of time to perfect these things. If we can build skyscrapers and infrastructure to maintain them, we can provide these services. You are conflating political ideology and economic motivation with literal ability. The ability is absolutely there, and was in the past as well. There is something different going on that causes these systems to be "held together with duct-tape" and it's actually other humans actively trying to destroy these systems, not that they are impossible.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I almost completely agree, and think we mainly disagree on the nuances. >The idea that there could be a grift set up to take advantage of people in the medical space, for instance, which is highly regulated and supposed to be for the benefit of people first and for generating capital second, is not intuitive to children. The first thing I wanted to touch on is the idea of grift. Just because some has their interests ahead of yours doesn't mean they are a grifter. I think the childish view is the expectation that other people put your interests above their own, like the selflessness of a loving parent. A doctor doesnt put your individual wellbeing above their own, but that doesnt make them a grifter or a bad person. Expecting that kind of selflessness is entirely unrealistic, and is what causes cognitive dissonance when it clashes with reality. Thats not to say that grifters dont exist, who actively manipulate and deceive, but simply having unrealistic expectations for something does not make it a grift. One example would when a doctor doesn't provide the depth of care and consideration the patient wants or would expect from a selfless caregiver. Most people come to the realization that they need to provide the drive and motivation for their own care, and doctors are just hired experts to help with things you cant do. You have to manage them and tell them what you want them to do. If you dont manage them like hired help, they will do very little indeed. >Humans have always formed societies, and those societies have always provided services for their people. In fact, before capitalism, most of these services were provided in-kind as a right of being a part of the tribe. This idea that every person is born as an individual and nothing is granted to them belongs to a certain political ideology that is designed to make sure people feel entitled to nothing, and keep things in the private industry, and keep government small. But I digress. I didnt mean to say that everyone is an island and forever alone. I mean that these things are not guaranteed entitlements, but conditional on human relations, standing, and mutual exchange. That is to say, they took work to maintain and were subject to constant scrutiny and mutual consent. Even in a tribe, goods and services were not provided unconditionally as some human birthright associated with tribal membership. Instead, they were conditional on good standing and mutual consent. >This idea is also untrue. We've had a lot of time to perfect these things. If we can build skyscrapers and infrastructure to maintain them, we can provide these services. You are conflating political ideology and economic motivation with literal ability. The ability is absolutely there, and was in the past as well. There is something different going on that causes these systems to be "held together with duct-tape" and it's actually other humans actively trying to destroy these systems, not that they are impossible. Im not arguing that beneficial institutions and functional societies are beyond human ability. Im saying their existence should not be taken for granted.
pokot0 2y ago
Honestly, as a society we should be able to guarantee most if not all of those. Every single one of them is an economic trade-off and when you put for profit companies in the loop, it’s obvious that they will prioritize their profits. The system is for profit by choice, it is under our control as society to guarantee that list or not, and we have chosen not to. Might be the right or wrong decision, that’s up to each of you, but denying it’s has been chosen it’s very naive
- viraptor 2y ago
  It's beyond economic trade-off. You're talking about full perfect control over people's behaviours. > That things that are legal to put in your body will not cause irreparable harm to you You can get water intoxication by literally drinking too much clean water. How are you going to get anywhere close to controlling that? > That your medical professional knows what they are talking about You just lost all medical staff, because they're people and people make mistakes. Even when they don't, people are extremely fuzzy puzzles and we don't have enough tests available to do precise diagnosis of lots of things.
  - itchyouch 2y ago
    The challenge with medicine, if one is dealing with a known condition, there's a known intervention. And Any number of simple and straightforward tests will make it easy. It's with the unknown conditions, that doesn't fall into the mental flow chart of a medical professional's mental model are SOL. The real answer to most folk's chronic conditions are lifestyle interventions, but of course, medical professionals most difficult challenge is ensuring compliance. The only tools available for a medical professional to a patient is to beg, plead, threaten, yell, discuss the interventions till they are blue in the face, but unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water, but can't force them to drink. The elephant in the room that no one wants to admit is that a lot of health issues are both self-inflicted through lifestyle choices, and it creates an negative feedback loop of demand for professionals to be able to truly have more time to care for the patients that truly need help.
  - jklinger410 2y ago
data_maan 2y ago
> Everything beyond nothing is an imperfect and unstable solution held together with duct-tape. What a depressing worldview... :(
- idiotsecant 2y ago
  I'd challenge you to attack it logically on it's merits. I think parent poster is obvipusly right, civilization exists on a precipice at all times. The natural state of the universe is toward entropy. That's not to say we can't make it better, just that we should have no illusions about its stability.
  - nativeit 2y ago
    Lots of folks on the internet misunderstand entropy.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I dont think it is depressing. I think it is marvelous and a testament to human engineering, perseverance, and collective spirit that we hold things together. As I said down thread, it is something to be grateful for, given that we are always one major catastrophe away from robbing and killing each other in the street. While sure, things could be better, I think it is overly cynical to consider the status quo garbage. If you wanna see some real garbage, go to Haiti, Donetsk, or Liberia and report back about US society isnt "good and just".

xeromal 2y ago

Every day is a good day to be alive whether the sun is shining or not. I'm with you. One quick look at history shows nothing is set in stone and it can always get worse.

jklinger410 2y ago

> I think the problem is that you were raised to think that a "good and just" world is one where there is no risk, no variability, and limited self-reliance. I think that children are generally raised to not believe there is "risk" associated with listening to experts. This means specialists like Doctors but also politicians and military officials. The idea that there could be a grift set up to take advantage of people in the medical space, for instance, which is highly regulated and supposed to be for the benefit of people first and for generating capital second, is not intuitive to children. In fact a wide array of industries and services in the United States, and the world (to not be political, as some commenter said) are set up to take advantage of children or naive young adults. Secondary education and student loans is a glaring example of this. > The default state is for none of these services and protections to exist whatsoever In all of human history this is mostly untrue. Humans have always formed societies, and those societies have always provided services for their people. In fact, before capitalism, most of these services were provided in-kind as a right of being a part of the tribe. This idea that every person is born as an individual and nothing is granted to them belongs to a certain political ideology that is designed to make sure people feel entitled to nothing, and keep things in the private industry, and keep government small. But I digress. Of course someone has to provide the service, and collect the materials for the service. And that person deserves to be compensated for that work. But the idea that the default state of a human is to be alone with nature and subject to pure individualism is simply not true, and never has been the norm, until that idea was used to justify not providing people with anything. > Everything beyond nothing is an imperfect and unstable solution held together with duct-tape This idea is also untrue. We've had a lot of time to perfect these things. If we can build skyscrapers and infrastructure to maintain them, we can provide these services. You are conflating political ideology and economic motivation with literal ability. The ability is absolutely there, and was in the past as well. There is something different going on that causes these systems to be "held together with duct-tape" and it's actually other humans actively trying to destroy these systems, not that they are impossible.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
I almost completely agree, and think we mainly disagree on the nuances. >The idea that there could be a grift set up to take advantage of people in the medical space, for instance, which is highly regulated and supposed to be for the benefit of people first and for generating capital second, is not intuitive to children. The first thing I wanted to touch on is the idea of grift. Just because some has their interests ahead of yours doesn't mean they are a grifter. I think the childish view is the expectation that other people put your interests above their own, like the selflessness of a loving parent. A doctor doesnt put your individual wellbeing above their own, but that doesnt make them a grifter or a bad person. Expecting that kind of selflessness is entirely unrealistic, and is what causes cognitive dissonance when it clashes with reality. Thats not to say that grifters dont exist, who actively manipulate and deceive, but simply having unrealistic expectations for something does not make it a grift. One example would when a doctor doesn't provide the depth of care and consideration the patient wants or would expect from a selfless caregiver. Most people come to the realization that they need to provide the drive and motivation for their own care, and doctors are just hired experts to help with things you cant do. You have to manage them and tell them what you want them to do. If you dont manage them like hired help, they will do very little indeed. >Humans have always formed societies, and those societies have always provided services for their people. In fact, before capitalism, most of these services were provided in-kind as a right of being a part of the tribe. This idea that every person is born as an individual and nothing is granted to them belongs to a certain political ideology that is designed to make sure people feel entitled to nothing, and keep things in the private industry, and keep government small. But I digress. I didnt mean to say that everyone is an island and forever alone. I mean that these things are not guaranteed entitlements, but conditional on human relations, standing, and mutual exchange. That is to say, they took work to maintain and were subject to constant scrutiny and mutual consent. Even in a tribe, goods and services were not provided unconditionally as some human birthright associated with tribal membership. Instead, they were conditional on good standing and mutual consent. >This idea is also untrue. We've had a lot of time to perfect these things. If we can build skyscrapers and infrastructure to maintain them, we can provide these services. You are conflating political ideology and economic motivation with literal ability. The ability is absolutely there, and was in the past as well. There is something different going on that causes these systems to be "held together with duct-tape" and it's actually other humans actively trying to destroy these systems, not that they are impossible. Im not arguing that beneficial institutions and functional societies are beyond human ability. Im saying their existence should not be taken for granted.

pokot0 2y ago

Honestly, as a society we should be able to guarantee most if not all of those. Every single one of them is an economic trade-off and when you put for profit companies in the loop, it’s obvious that they will prioritize their profits. The system is for profit by choice, it is under our control as society to guarantee that list or not, and we have chosen not to. Might be the right or wrong decision, that’s up to each of you, but denying it’s has been chosen it’s very naive

viraptor 2y ago
It's beyond economic trade-off. You're talking about full perfect control over people's behaviours. > That things that are legal to put in your body will not cause irreparable harm to you You can get water intoxication by literally drinking too much clean water. How are you going to get anywhere close to controlling that? > That your medical professional knows what they are talking about You just lost all medical staff, because they're people and people make mistakes. Even when they don't, people are extremely fuzzy puzzles and we don't have enough tests available to do precise diagnosis of lots of things.
- itchyouch 2y ago
  The challenge with medicine, if one is dealing with a known condition, there's a known intervention. And Any number of simple and straightforward tests will make it easy. It's with the unknown conditions, that doesn't fall into the mental flow chart of a medical professional's mental model are SOL. The real answer to most folk's chronic conditions are lifestyle interventions, but of course, medical professionals most difficult challenge is ensuring compliance. The only tools available for a medical professional to a patient is to beg, plead, threaten, yell, discuss the interventions till they are blue in the face, but unfortunately, you can lead a horse to water, but can't force them to drink. The elephant in the room that no one wants to admit is that a lot of health issues are both self-inflicted through lifestyle choices, and it creates an negative feedback loop of demand for professionals to be able to truly have more time to care for the patients that truly need help.
- jklinger410 2y ago

data_maan 2y ago

> Everything beyond nothing is an imperfect and unstable solution held together with duct-tape. What a depressing worldview... :(

idiotsecant 2y ago
I'd challenge you to attack it logically on it's merits. I think parent poster is obvipusly right, civilization exists on a precipice at all times. The natural state of the universe is toward entropy. That's not to say we can't make it better, just that we should have no illusions about its stability.
- nativeit 2y ago
  Lots of folks on the internet misunderstand entropy.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
I dont think it is depressing. I think it is marvelous and a testament to human engineering, perseverance, and collective spirit that we hold things together. As I said down thread, it is something to be grateful for, given that we are always one major catastrophe away from robbing and killing each other in the street. While sure, things could be better, I think it is overly cynical to consider the status quo garbage. If you wanna see some real garbage, go to Haiti, Donetsk, or Liberia and report back about US society isnt "good and just".