7 ms·

I read it as all the human essentials are covered without work (sufficiently nutritious food, safe, clean, shelter with sufficient heating and water for basic n

I read it as all the human essentials are covered without work (sufficiently nutritious food, safe, clean, shelter with sufficient heating and water for basic needs, basic healthcare, basic internet, and a small extra for discretionary spending) with the assumption that most people will happily do some work to upgrade their circumstances and get more fun and interesting food/entertainment/shelter. If quitting your job doesn't put your life or your ability to get another job (because you're not capable of maintaining basic grooming, for example) at risk, then the "free market" model of employment can actually work, and people can opt out of jobs that treat them poorly or underpay them. At that point all the most essential/difficult/unpleasant jobs would actually have to pay the most, and cushier jobs with more reasonable hours could pay less, and people could do the amount of work it takes to get the amount of money they want. Think of how hard people work just to make a bit more money even when they're financially stable, just because they want a house or a cool car or a nice vacation. Why would that change if you didn't have to bleed yourself dry just to eat and sleep under a roof?

ssl-3 2y ago
There's a mindset that I often run into with IRL discussions that revolves around the premise that if a person has some minimal essentials met by doing nothing, then they will have no motivation to ever improve their situation at all. That if a person can afford to accomplish nothing but still have enough money to smoke weed and play video games, then all anyone will ever do is smoke weed and play video games. I don't subscribe to that mindset: I want a nice place to live, with room for all of my hobbies and for guests to comfortably visit overnight. I want a good car and a nice place to park it and to work on it. I want to be able to afford a glorious steak dinner out or an amazing gyro without having to sacrifice. I want the best tools to create my own food in my own kitchen. I want the fastest internet and an ample homelab to do stuff with it. I want to make an annual thousand-mile pilgrimage to hang out with some friends for a week doing cool shit together (which requires real money), and I want to be able to take an actual-vacation some other time in the year where I can afford to go camping or something. I want to be able to provide thoughtful and useful gifts to my people, even if they happen to be expensive. (And if I were allowed to smoke weed [my job doesn't permit it and testing is both thorough and regular], I'd want the best weed.) I wouldn't be able to accomplish these things with UBI, so even in a hypothetical future where UBI is a thing: I won't want to sit around and do nothing: So far in life, I want quite a lot more more than the basic essentials and I'm willing to work for those things. (I do know some people who don't seem to be capable of more than nothing, due to mental and/or physical conditions, and it's likely that all of us know someone like this -- and these folks will have a rough time with life with or without UBI. But I firmly believe that most people would prefer staying in the rat race, because most people who are capable of work also have some fondness for whatever they consider to be *nice* things. But I might fall down in the future; it's happened to me before for a variety of reasons. And it'd be nice to be able to afford to fall down without becoming homeless when my income drops from something useful to near-zero.)
- stubish 2y ago
  One thing that I haven't seen discussed is retirement. When you have a high paying job, you can retire early and still maintain your desired standard of living (and most people do, because most people don't enjoy their job and that is why we call it work). So a pretty uninspiring job like plumbing would end up paying a very high salary. Or stressful jobs like nurse or doctor. What happens when people doing these critical and now highly paid jobs retire to their yachts at 40? Will the market balance things, and did enough apprentice plumbers get trained to take over? Or will things spiral out of control and collapse? And how does the extremely high wages of critical jobs affect the level of UBI? If it is set to meet minimum essentials, then the UBI too can spiral up as the cost of those essentials such as the plumbers wage goes up. I tend to think that without a lot more automation, then a UBI cannot cover the minimum essentials/poverty line, because of the large amount of work required to support society that is only done because people are forced to do it, to the point that we cannot sustain bribing people to do it. But maybe it will work if we are able to replace every barista with a vending machine, have the trucks load and drive themselves, and build robotic assistants to allow 1 plumber to do the job of 10.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    Honestly, I think it would even be acceptable to punish UBI "freeloaders" with, like, austerity. Like they get slow(ish) internet, a 10x10 foot studio apartment with a toilet, a stand-up shower, a counter with a mini-fridge and a hotplate (or premade food rations, whichever is cheaper), and a single window with a shitty view. Nutritious food, clean water. And then, if you have proof of another habitable residence, you can get the cash value of all that instead. The tricky part is that the austerity absolutely cannot reduce anyone below the minimum actual needs to live a full human life. You absolutely need to be giving them enough and healthy enough food, and water. The apartment can be claustrophobic, but it needs ventilation and sound insulation so people can actually sleep. The bed can be boring, but tall people can't be literally cramped when they sleep, and it needs to actually support their weight so people don't get back injuries. Health care needs to be fully adequate. Basically, minimum needs are 100% covered, so that if anyone ever wants to get working they don't have any immediate barriers. Don't take away anything that will make it harder for people to work.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
The system breaks down when people get to democratically vote for their own UBI. Why work extra for a cool car or nice vacation when you can just vote for more benefits?
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  People could already vote for free cars to citizens, but they don't because the economics are terrible. I don't see UBI making that risk worse.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    UBI is the risk in question, and the economics ARE terrible. The average US income is ~$37K and that includes workers. How does that stack up with expectations for UBI, given that it would take 100% socialization of income to reach that level of UBI.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      > it would take 100% socialization of income to reach that level of UBI I want to see you attempt to do the math to show that. Here's my rough math: Mean income is about $60k. If we take the extra simple option, we can increase all tax brackets by 20% and give everyone a $12k credit, and it trivially balances. The median income increases, the low end of income drastically increases, and higher incomes drop. Such an outcome is very far from total socialization. The effective tax rate of anyone below $60k income drops, and the max marginal rate is a not-crazy 57%. But also we can make the tax increase progressive as well. And we can include capital gains as income and lower the percents. And we can cut a good chunk of existing welfare which decreases the tax burden. This isn't a suggestion for an optimal method, it's a basic sanity check.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        60k is the average working income, not average adult income or human income. You are also casually applying a 20% hike, which for many people is their entire budget after taxes and housing. My effective rate is already >40%, and you are proposing another 20%. That would mean others are getting more of my salary than I am. 12k seems an absurdity low number to provide universal shelter, Healthcare, food, security, and entertainment. My newspapers are full of stories on how 100k/yr isn't a living wage in California
nox101 2y ago
An issue is where.... rent in SF or LA or NYC is $4k a month for a 1bedroom apartment. Rent in some parts of the mid-west is probably $500 a month or less. So is UBI for the first or the 2nd? Do you have to move somewhere where rent is cheap? If not why not?

ssl-3 2y ago

There's a mindset that I often run into with IRL discussions that revolves around the premise that if a person has some minimal essentials met by doing nothing, then they will have no motivation to ever improve their situation at all. That if a person can afford to accomplish nothing but still have enough money to smoke weed and play video games, then all anyone will ever do is smoke weed and play video games. I don't subscribe to that mindset: I want a nice place to live, with room for all of my hobbies and for guests to comfortably visit overnight. I want a good car and a nice place to park it and to work on it. I want to be able to afford a glorious steak dinner out or an amazing gyro without having to sacrifice. I want the best tools to create my own food in my own kitchen. I want the fastest internet and an ample homelab to do stuff with it. I want to make an annual thousand-mile pilgrimage to hang out with some friends for a week doing cool shit together (which requires real money), and I want to be able to take an actual-vacation some other time in the year where I can afford to go camping or something. I want to be able to provide thoughtful and useful gifts to my people, even if they happen to be expensive. (And if I were allowed to smoke weed [my job doesn't permit it and testing is both thorough and regular], I'd want the best weed.) I wouldn't be able to accomplish these things with UBI, so even in a hypothetical future where UBI is a thing: I won't want to sit around and do nothing: So far in life, I want quite a lot more more than the basic essentials and I'm willing to work for those things. (I do know some people who don't seem to be capable of more than nothing, due to mental and/or physical conditions, and it's likely that all of us know someone like this -- and these folks will have a rough time with life with or without UBI. But I firmly believe that most people would prefer staying in the rat race, because most people who are capable of work also have some fondness for whatever they consider to be *nice* things. But I might fall down in the future; it's happened to me before for a variety of reasons. And it'd be nice to be able to afford to fall down without becoming homeless when my income drops from something useful to near-zero.)

stubish 2y ago
One thing that I haven't seen discussed is retirement. When you have a high paying job, you can retire early and still maintain your desired standard of living (and most people do, because most people don't enjoy their job and that is why we call it work). So a pretty uninspiring job like plumbing would end up paying a very high salary. Or stressful jobs like nurse or doctor. What happens when people doing these critical and now highly paid jobs retire to their yachts at 40? Will the market balance things, and did enough apprentice plumbers get trained to take over? Or will things spiral out of control and collapse? And how does the extremely high wages of critical jobs affect the level of UBI? If it is set to meet minimum essentials, then the UBI too can spiral up as the cost of those essentials such as the plumbers wage goes up. I tend to think that without a lot more automation, then a UBI cannot cover the minimum essentials/poverty line, because of the large amount of work required to support society that is only done because people are forced to do it, to the point that we cannot sustain bribing people to do it. But maybe it will work if we are able to replace every barista with a vending machine, have the trucks load and drive themselves, and build robotic assistants to allow 1 plumber to do the job of 10.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Honestly, I think it would even be acceptable to punish UBI "freeloaders" with, like, austerity. Like they get slow(ish) internet, a 10x10 foot studio apartment with a toilet, a stand-up shower, a counter with a mini-fridge and a hotplate (or premade food rations, whichever is cheaper), and a single window with a shitty view. Nutritious food, clean water. And then, if you have proof of another habitable residence, you can get the cash value of all that instead. The tricky part is that the austerity absolutely cannot reduce anyone below the minimum actual needs to live a full human life. You absolutely need to be giving them enough and healthy enough food, and water. The apartment can be claustrophobic, but it needs ventilation and sound insulation so people can actually sleep. The bed can be boring, but tall people can't be literally cramped when they sleep, and it needs to actually support their weight so people don't get back injuries. Health care needs to be fully adequate. Basically, minimum needs are 100% covered, so that if anyone ever wants to get working they don't have any immediate barriers. Don't take away anything that will make it harder for people to work.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

The system breaks down when people get to democratically vote for their own UBI. Why work extra for a cool car or nice vacation when you can just vote for more benefits?

Dylan16807 2y ago
People could already vote for free cars to citizens, but they don't because the economics are terrible. I don't see UBI making that risk worse.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  UBI is the risk in question, and the economics ARE terrible. The average US income is ~$37K and that includes workers. How does that stack up with expectations for UBI, given that it would take 100% socialization of income to reach that level of UBI.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > it would take 100% socialization of income to reach that level of UBI I want to see you attempt to do the math to show that. Here's my rough math: Mean income is about $60k. If we take the extra simple option, we can increase all tax brackets by 20% and give everyone a $12k credit, and it trivially balances. The median income increases, the low end of income drastically increases, and higher incomes drop. Such an outcome is very far from total socialization. The effective tax rate of anyone below $60k income drops, and the max marginal rate is a not-crazy 57%. But also we can make the tax increase progressive as well. And we can include capital gains as income and lower the percents. And we can cut a good chunk of existing welfare which decreases the tax burden. This isn't a suggestion for an optimal method, it's a basic sanity check.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      60k is the average working income, not average adult income or human income. You are also casually applying a 20% hike, which for many people is their entire budget after taxes and housing. My effective rate is already >40%, and you are proposing another 20%. That would mean others are getting more of my salary than I am. 12k seems an absurdity low number to provide universal shelter, Healthcare, food, security, and entertainment. My newspapers are full of stories on how 100k/yr isn't a living wage in California

nox101 2y ago

An issue is where.... rent in SF or LA or NYC is $4k a month for a 1bedroom apartment. Rent in some parts of the mid-west is probably $500 a month or less. So is UBI for the first or the 2nd? Do you have to move somewhere where rent is cheap? If not why not?