4 ms·

> The conclusion that I finally came to (right or wrong) was that I was unwilling to study the chessboard and weigh the consequences of each possible move I mig

> The conclusion that I finally came to (right or wrong) was that I was unwilling to study the chessboard and weigh the consequences of each possible move I might make. Even people who couldn't see complex patterns might at least penetrate two or three moves ahead, but not I. I moved entirely on impulse, if not at random, and could not make myself do anything else. That meant I would almost certainly lose. > And again - why? To me, it seems obvious. I was spoiled by my ability to understand instantly, my ability to recall instantly. I expected to see things at once and I refused to accept a situation in which that was not possible. Interesting. I was also fairly bad at chess as a kid, and my self-diagnosis was similar. I found "checking" all the possible moves too tedious, so I just did the first one that looked promising, to terrible effect. I've tried to play a little as an adult, and now I have more patience, but that means I find chess too stressful! I don't want to go until I'm fairly sure I have a good move, but I still can't quite "check" all the possible moves, so I sweat the whole time and don't enjoy playing.

mihaic 2y ago
Thanks for sharing, I have the same experience with chess, and have never liked it for the same reasons. There's no mediocre version of chess that you can do instinctively, and I don't really like to do tedious and repetitive mental work when playing games. I just suck at chess, and have given it up, as it's something that's not for me. I can play some decent poker though (not really great, just better than chess).
- tudorconstantin 2y ago
  I think “puzzle storms” on lichess can be considered a way of fiddling with chess instinctively. I found it also helps with not giving pieces for free when playing full games and also seeing the blunders your opponent makes way faster
DiscourseFan 2y ago
In real life, you've always got to go with your gut. But in chess you have perfect prescience: there is a very limited set of parameters, and things can only occur within them. Its good training for real life, since you can have both foresight and risk, and for me at least I always have a multitude of different plans about both my near and far future sitting somewhere in the back of my head, switching between and adjusting them depending on the circumstances that arise.
- elevaet 2y ago
  There's a good arguement that backgammon and bridge are better training for real life because of the mixture of strategy and randomness.
  - ddingus 2y ago
    I would argue strongly for poker. No limit hold 'em poker is a fantastic game! My experience learning the game, alongside my wife, who we learned later in life is an exemplary player! (The story behind that involves a period of high work travel for me, a Playstation, and Doyls Room online poker and a $2K seed bankroll...) ...my experience is this game will, or can if you allow it, change how you think. Maybe the more accurate thing to say would be the game opens up more kinds of thought.
    - khafra 2y ago
      If you're interested in games that teach real-world epistemic skills, Jane Street just publicly released Figgie: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PypgeCxFHLzmBENK4/poker-is-a-bad-game-for-teaching-epistemics-figgie-is-a https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PypgeCxFHLzmBENK4/poker-is-a...
  - appleiigs 2y ago
    Poker has strategy, randomness and asymmetric info.
NBJack 2y ago
I also agree chess is tedious. I feel the same way about Sudoku. While I enjoy coming up with algorithms as part of my living, I take little pleasure in executing them myself (beyond testing and a few thought exercises to find the right solution). But as a counterpoint, I thoroughly enjoy games where I build something based on resources I myself have aquired. Whether it's voxels or virtual scrap piles, it is gratifying to earn what I build with.
- eddd-ddde 2y ago
  Interesting experience. I love sudokus, I like speed running sudokus, I try to see how fast and accurately I can recognise certain patterns. But then, /factorio/... I love the idea of factorio, I love watching factorio gameplay, but whenever I try to play it myself, I get overwhelmed immediately. My perfectionist brain refuses to immediately have a perfect factory and so I just shut down the computer.
Dylan16807 2y ago
> I've tried to play a little as an adult, and now I have more patience, but that means I find chess too stressful! I don't want to go until I'm fairly sure I have a good move, but I still can't quite "check" all the possible moves, so I sweat the whole time and don't enjoy playing. Do you use a timer? I feel like a moderate per-turn timer should prevent you from reaching the "can't quite check everything" zone, while still encouraging you to evaluate several positions.
neontomo 2y ago
I feel the same way. I don't have the patience to see the next move. however I've noticed that I do quite well in Othello by intuitive moves, beating people who strategise and think deeply about their next move. it's frustrating for them when I declare that I just picked the move that felt right! intuition has its place in games, there is certainly some form of intelligence there, but in chess it probably only works when you have a mind like Fischer or Carlsen.
- rramadass 2y ago
  The faculty of re-solution is possibly much invigorated by mathematical study, and especially by that highest branch of it which, unjustly, and merely on account of its retrograde operations, has been called, as if par excellence, analysis. Yet to calculate is not in itself to analyse. A chess-player, for example, does the one without effort at the other. It follows that the game of chess, in its effects upon mental character, is greatly misunderstood. I am not now writing a treatise, but simply prefacing a somewhat peculiar narrative by observations very much at random; I will, therefore, take occasion to assert that the higher powers of the reflective intellect are more decidedly and more usefully tasked by the unostentatious game of draughts than by all the elaborate frivolity of chess. In this latter, where the pieces have different and bizarre motions, with various and variable values, what is only complex is mistaken (a not unusual error) for what is profound. The attention is here called powerfully into play. If it flag for an instant, an oversight is committed, resulting in injury or defeat. The possible moves being not only manifold but involute, the chances of such oversights are multiplied; and in nine cases out of ten it is the more concentrative rather than the more acute player who conquers. In draughts, on the contrary, where the moves are unique and have but little variation, the probabilities of inadvertence are diminished, and the mere attention being left comparatively unemployed, what advantages are obtained by either party are obtained by superior acumen. -- From "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" by Edgar Allan Poe. Read it at https://poestories.com/read/murders https://poestories.com/read/murders
- jve 2y ago
  There are principles that help when playing chess as I learned watching some YouTubers: - Develop your minor pieces early in the game (bishop/knight) - Castle - Connect the rooks - Put pieces in a way they are protected by other pieces, so you don't blunder. - Don't put out queen to early or make heroic attacks with 2 pieces at the beginning of the game. - Don't start pushing pawns like crazy before you've developed. Especially pawns in front of the king while board is still crowded by minor/major pieces. I think I've only lost a single game where opponent pushed pawns like crazy while leaving rest of the army behind. - Watch out for ways how opponent can check you and do harm. - See what forcing moves you have. Look for 1. checks and 2. captures. - You don't always have to defend piece that is being attack - you can be more aggressive and make a thread yourself by advancing some other piece. - To take is a mistake - you don't always want to take opponents pawn or piece as it can help develop them/put another piece on a more active square. Or it may help open up an open file for a rook, tldr makes opponent pieces more active (active means pieces cover more squares). You may sometimes benefit of enemy capturing your piece first and you recapture by leaving some file closed/blocked by pawn. - Usually there is little calculation needed in the opening. GM Igor Smirnov also mentions that he doesn't always calculate. And he doesn't calculate what happens when opponent pieces go backwards, usually calculates what is the biggest threat opponent can make. And it can be beneficial to calculate just 2-3 moves ahead. - Try to see what your opponent wants to do - You must have some kind of a plan - why do you want to put piece on that square? Not just put it there because you have to move and on the next move that same piece is being threatened with, say, no defenders. - Jumping in with the knight deep into enemy territory without a way to back out may cost you a knight. - Putting a piece on a square that opponent can kick you out on next move maybe just looses tempo if the goal is not to reposition your piece or there is another thought to it. Anyways, knowing all of this I'm only 800 rated. I blunder alot. Or I have a great advantage until I make it to the endgame where I loose. I also come to realization that one must remember / know lot of stuff to be good at chess. I thought my logical thinking is strong, but yeah, I don't enjoy the skillset needed to become good at chess.
totetsu 2y ago
When I was studying about memory and learning, the example of chess masters came up when talking of chunking. The idea that bigger problems can be reduced to a number of chunks that can be understood and recalled instantly. So chess master might not be so much about being able to see x move ahead, but being able to look at the current board state and recall what pattern it is fitting into.
oessessnex 2y ago
You don't play by checking all possible moves on every turn like a machine. It's mostly intuition based, but it takes a while before it develops. Also there are levels to this game, the range of players that is fun to play against is kind of narrow, outside of that you either obliterate or get obliterated.
animal531 2y ago
This is how I played chess when I was a kid. Scan for all the possible next moves, all replies, do some pruning, repeat etc. I think my max depth was probably around 12 moves into the future or so. But now, thinking about it as an adult and it terms of AI, why are we using our conscious mind to calculate when we have a whole brain in place to do the work for us? You instead want to train your brain to recognize positions, opportunities and let it empirically calculate for you in the background. Looking at how chess masters play they seem to employ both these.
unaindz 2y ago
Same story but although I have more patience now I still don't have lots for chess. For this reason I don't excel nor enjoy long games but I found quick games, bullet and blitz, pretty fun. You end up moving on instinct most of the time but calculating lines when things look sketchy.

mihaic 2y ago

Thanks for sharing, I have the same experience with chess, and have never liked it for the same reasons. There's no mediocre version of chess that you can do instinctively, and I don't really like to do tedious and repetitive mental work when playing games. I just suck at chess, and have given it up, as it's something that's not for me. I can play some decent poker though (not really great, just better than chess).

tudorconstantin 2y ago
I think “puzzle storms” on lichess can be considered a way of fiddling with chess instinctively. I found it also helps with not giving pieces for free when playing full games and also seeing the blunders your opponent makes way faster

DiscourseFan 2y ago

In real life, you've always got to go with your gut. But in chess you have perfect prescience: there is a very limited set of parameters, and things can only occur within them. Its good training for real life, since you can have both foresight and risk, and for me at least I always have a multitude of different plans about both my near and far future sitting somewhere in the back of my head, switching between and adjusting them depending on the circumstances that arise.

elevaet 2y ago
There's a good arguement that backgammon and bridge are better training for real life because of the mixture of strategy and randomness.
- ddingus 2y ago
  I would argue strongly for poker. No limit hold 'em poker is a fantastic game! My experience learning the game, alongside my wife, who we learned later in life is an exemplary player! (The story behind that involves a period of high work travel for me, a Playstation, and Doyls Room online poker and a $2K seed bankroll...) ...my experience is this game will, or can if you allow it, change how you think. Maybe the more accurate thing to say would be the game opens up more kinds of thought.
  - khafra 2y ago
    If you're interested in games that teach real-world epistemic skills, Jane Street just publicly released Figgie: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PypgeCxFHLzmBENK4/poker-is-a-bad-game-for-teaching-epistemics-figgie-is-a https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/PypgeCxFHLzmBENK4/poker-is-a...
- appleiigs 2y ago
  Poker has strategy, randomness and asymmetric info.

NBJack 2y ago

I also agree chess is tedious. I feel the same way about Sudoku. While I enjoy coming up with algorithms as part of my living, I take little pleasure in executing them myself (beyond testing and a few thought exercises to find the right solution). But as a counterpoint, I thoroughly enjoy games where I build something based on resources I myself have aquired. Whether it's voxels or virtual scrap piles, it is gratifying to earn what I build with.

eddd-ddde 2y ago
Interesting experience. I love sudokus, I like speed running sudokus, I try to see how fast and accurately I can recognise certain patterns. But then, /factorio/... I love the idea of factorio, I love watching factorio gameplay, but whenever I try to play it myself, I get overwhelmed immediately. My perfectionist brain refuses to immediately have a perfect factory and so I just shut down the computer.

Dylan16807 2y ago

> I've tried to play a little as an adult, and now I have more patience, but that means I find chess too stressful! I don't want to go until I'm fairly sure I have a good move, but I still can't quite "check" all the possible moves, so I sweat the whole time and don't enjoy playing. Do you use a timer? I feel like a moderate per-turn timer should prevent you from reaching the "can't quite check everything" zone, while still encouraging you to evaluate several positions.

neontomo 2y ago

I feel the same way. I don't have the patience to see the next move. however I've noticed that I do quite well in Othello by intuitive moves, beating people who strategise and think deeply about their next move. it's frustrating for them when I declare that I just picked the move that felt right! intuition has its place in games, there is certainly some form of intelligence there, but in chess it probably only works when you have a mind like Fischer or Carlsen.

rramadass 2y ago
The faculty of re-solution is possibly much invigorated by mathematical study, and especially by that highest branch of it which, unjustly, and merely on account of its retrograde operations, has been called, as if par excellence, analysis. Yet to calculate is not in itself to analyse. A chess-player, for example, does the one without effort at the other. It follows that the game of chess, in its effects upon mental character, is greatly misunderstood. I am not now writing a treatise, but simply prefacing a somewhat peculiar narrative by observations very much at random; I will, therefore, take occasion to assert that the higher powers of the reflective intellect are more decidedly and more usefully tasked by the unostentatious game of draughts than by all the elaborate frivolity of chess. In this latter, where the pieces have different and bizarre motions, with various and variable values, what is only complex is mistaken (a not unusual error) for what is profound. The attention is here called powerfully into play. If it flag for an instant, an oversight is committed, resulting in injury or defeat. The possible moves being not only manifold but involute, the chances of such oversights are multiplied; and in nine cases out of ten it is the more concentrative rather than the more acute player who conquers. In draughts, on the contrary, where the moves are unique and have but little variation, the probabilities of inadvertence are diminished, and the mere attention being left comparatively unemployed, what advantages are obtained by either party are obtained by superior acumen. -- From "The Murders in the Rue Morgue" by Edgar Allan Poe. Read it at https://poestories.com/read/murders https://poestories.com/read/murders
jve 2y ago
There are principles that help when playing chess as I learned watching some YouTubers: - Develop your minor pieces early in the game (bishop/knight) - Castle - Connect the rooks - Put pieces in a way they are protected by other pieces, so you don't blunder. - Don't put out queen to early or make heroic attacks with 2 pieces at the beginning of the game. - Don't start pushing pawns like crazy before you've developed. Especially pawns in front of the king while board is still crowded by minor/major pieces. I think I've only lost a single game where opponent pushed pawns like crazy while leaving rest of the army behind. - Watch out for ways how opponent can check you and do harm. - See what forcing moves you have. Look for 1. checks and 2. captures. - You don't always have to defend piece that is being attack - you can be more aggressive and make a thread yourself by advancing some other piece. - To take is a mistake - you don't always want to take opponents pawn or piece as it can help develop them/put another piece on a more active square. Or it may help open up an open file for a rook, tldr makes opponent pieces more active (active means pieces cover more squares). You may sometimes benefit of enemy capturing your piece first and you recapture by leaving some file closed/blocked by pawn. - Usually there is little calculation needed in the opening. GM Igor Smirnov also mentions that he doesn't always calculate. And he doesn't calculate what happens when opponent pieces go backwards, usually calculates what is the biggest threat opponent can make. And it can be beneficial to calculate just 2-3 moves ahead. - Try to see what your opponent wants to do - You must have some kind of a plan - why do you want to put piece on that square? Not just put it there because you have to move and on the next move that same piece is being threatened with, say, no defenders. - Jumping in with the knight deep into enemy territory without a way to back out may cost you a knight. - Putting a piece on a square that opponent can kick you out on next move maybe just looses tempo if the goal is not to reposition your piece or there is another thought to it. Anyways, knowing all of this I'm only 800 rated. I blunder alot. Or I have a great advantage until I make it to the endgame where I loose. I also come to realization that one must remember / know lot of stuff to be good at chess. I thought my logical thinking is strong, but yeah, I don't enjoy the skillset needed to become good at chess.

totetsu 2y ago

When I was studying about memory and learning, the example of chess masters came up when talking of chunking. The idea that bigger problems can be reduced to a number of chunks that can be understood and recalled instantly. So chess master might not be so much about being able to see x move ahead, but being able to look at the current board state and recall what pattern it is fitting into.

oessessnex 2y ago

You don't play by checking all possible moves on every turn like a machine. It's mostly intuition based, but it takes a while before it develops. Also there are levels to this game, the range of players that is fun to play against is kind of narrow, outside of that you either obliterate or get obliterated.

animal531 2y ago

This is how I played chess when I was a kid. Scan for all the possible next moves, all replies, do some pruning, repeat etc. I think my max depth was probably around 12 moves into the future or so. But now, thinking about it as an adult and it terms of AI, why are we using our conscious mind to calculate when we have a whole brain in place to do the work for us? You instead want to train your brain to recognize positions, opportunities and let it empirically calculate for you in the background. Looking at how chess masters play they seem to employ both these.

unaindz 2y ago

Same story but although I have more patience now I still don't have lots for chess. For this reason I don't excel nor enjoy long games but I found quick games, bullet and blitz, pretty fun. You end up moving on instinct most of the time but calculating lines when things look sketchy.