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I am not sure that's a fair thing to say. Because people have no problem spending tons of money on other things, so what it really comes down to is people value

I am not sure that's a fair thing to say. Because people have no problem spending tons of money on other things, so what it really comes down to is people value material possessions more than having babies. What is kind of baffling to me is a lot of people are still not having kids, but anthropomortising their pets, paying 10s of thousands a year in health insurance and bills for their pets, taking them to day care, and not traveling when they can't find sitters, etc.

autokad 2y ago
to all those above: The essentials of childcare have merely gone up with inflation since the 1800s. Thus, 'its too expensive' doesn't jive, as people were having lots of kids back then. A prime example is housing. People seem to think if they have a kid, they NEED a 4 bedroom 2 bathroom house with a yard, or you simply can't have a kid at all, game over if you don't own that. Meanwhile my 1920s home was more than enough for families back then, it was a 2 bedroom 1 bath. As far as pet care, people are spending 40,000$ on operations on their pets, and thousands a month on pet health insurance. People are spending 20/hour for dog walkers, the average Seattle dog owner spends up to 9,000$ / year on their dog (source wagwalking.com). No one says you have to pay nannys and private schooling. thats on you. that's about on par with a child, and someone pointed out a dog only lives 20 years, that just means your 'investment' is less well spent and support my claim pets are expensive. Also noting: you dont owe your kid anything after 18, they should be grown adults capable of making their own money and decisions after that point.
LUmBULtERA 2y ago
>people value material possessions more than having babies Eh, for people in my area at least, childcare for one new baby could is easily $20k-$45k/year, whereas I don't know of anyone personally who spends anywhere near that much a year on non-necessity material possessions. Plus all the other costs of a baby. Just another 1 room in an apartment could also be another $500-$1000 a month. Plus all the other baby-related costs. You could easily be talking about an order of magnitude difference in child-cost vs. typical spending on non-necessity material possessions per year.
- autokad 2y ago
  you can easily do that in your house and vehicle. people way over spend on those, especially now. people are over spending on a lot of things that quickly add up, since we aren't talking about a 'specific person' its hard to say what. For example, people buy phones every year (1,000$ a pop), eating out can cost many thousands, etc. Its also not uncommon for people to buy 20,000$ watches or hand bags.
darth_avocado 2y ago
Pets are still cheaper than kids. And the longest you'll be on the hook for is 13-15 years if you're lucky. > Because people have no problem spending tons of money on other things It's like saying I'm spending my money on Starbucks, and that's why I can't afford kids. The reality is that childcare is astronomically expensive. Me and my wife both work in tech, and we've had the conversation where it made more financial sense if one of us quit our jobs to raise the kids. Unfortunately we can't do that because covering mortgage would become a problem. The solution: don't have more kids.
- autokad 2y ago
  you answered your own question, you bought a house you couldn't afford and choose material items (a house) over children. I work in tech too, and I'm probably about median TC in tech. With my income alone I could support children and a wife, so if you are both working and can't afford it: you bought way to much house.
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    > With my income alone I could support children and a wife Let me guess, you bought a house before 2021 and are locked in on 3% or less mortgage. > you bought a house you couldn't afford I bought a 3 bed not so big house. Are you going to tell me that’s too big for a family with 2 kids? Or are you going to tell me I should’ve been born earlier to buy the same house for cheaper and lock in those rates?
    - autokad 2y ago
      > Let me guess, you bought a house before 2021 and are locked in on 3% or less mortgage. yes, and I want to buy a new home but these prices are unreasonable, so I am not. unfortunately, I also rent because I had to move for work; however, who said you need to buy? I am not saying you are wrong for doing so, that's what you wanted to do and good on you for that. but you made a conscious choice to choose buying a home over having kids. you could have rented, or like me you could just wait. my friend and her husband both work with a combined income of 250,000. They live in Brooklyn, NYC and have THREE kids, and still travel, etc. I'm guessing you and your wife is making more then that. if you can't support 3 kids at your combined income: You are over spending. > Or are you going to tell me I should’ve been born earlier to buy the same house for cheaper and lock in those rates? now you are just being rediculous / toxic, so will ignore that.
danielbln 2y ago
I have a pet and a child, and I'm not sure what's not to get. A cat or dog lives about 20 years, is magnitudes easier to raise than a child and comes with magnitudes less liability, responsibility and life changes. They are not interchangeable, no matter how much we anthropomorphize them. That being said, our cat is still family and I would do anything in my power to ensure her well-being and would be absolutely devastated and grieving when she passes.
schmidtleonard 2y ago
> people value material possessions more than having babies. Your example was spending ~$10k/yr on vet bills. Press (X) to doubt, but if you really think babies cost less than this, you are wildly misinformed.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  You just need to look at how much diapers or formula costs to come down to reality.
  - autokad 2y ago
    what are you talking about, diapers cost 840$ / year. formula, between 800 and 3k depending.
autoexec 2y ago
> Because people have no problem spending tons of money on other things We have record numbers of Americans who can't afford their rent, record numbers of utility disconnections for non-pay, household debt is at all time highs and people are struggling with the rising costs of food. In whatever bubble you live your life in, people might seem like people "have no problems spending tons of money" but looking at the state of things in general it's very clear that Americans are struggling.
- autokad 2y ago
  we also have record amount spent on travel, online purchases, and all sorts of non essentials. People are buying homes that have gone up by over 2x in the last 4 years, where monthy costs of their mortgage are like 50% of their total compensation. They didnt need to buy that house, rent is very cheap compared to the cost of homes right now.
  - autoexec 2y ago
    > we also have record amount spent on travel That's heavily skewed by the wealthy. Most Americans can't afford to take a vacation at all. (https://www.newsweek.com/americans-ca-no-longer-afford-vacation-1920045 https://www.newsweek.com/americans-ca-no-longer-afford-vacat...), online purchases are at record highs every year (since 2009) and the overall trend is that online purchases have increased since the early/mid 2000s and that's not expected to change any time soon. > People are buying homes that have gone up by over 2x in the last 4 years Very rich people and investors (including foreign investors) have been buying homes. Foreign investment is slowing down because of the high prices. Current transactions are at "recessionary lows" and "The average home is still unaffordable for most potential buyers" (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/25/home-price-growth-slows-what-it-means-for-buyers-and-sellers.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/25/home-price-growth-slows-what...). Mostly people just aren't buying houses. In 2023 homes sales were at their lowest since the mid 90s (https://www.wsj.com/economy/housing/home-sales-likely-fell-to-15-year-low-in-2023-3da220e1 https://www.wsj.com/economy/housing/home-sales-likely-fell-t... or here (no paywall issues) : https://www.housingwire.com/articles/just-4-09-million-existing-homes-were-sold-in-2023/ https://www.housingwire.com/articles/just-4-09-million-exist...)

autokad 2y ago

to all those above: The essentials of childcare have merely gone up with inflation since the 1800s. Thus, 'its too expensive' doesn't jive, as people were having lots of kids back then. A prime example is housing. People seem to think if they have a kid, they NEED a 4 bedroom 2 bathroom house with a yard, or you simply can't have a kid at all, game over if you don't own that. Meanwhile my 1920s home was more than enough for families back then, it was a 2 bedroom 1 bath. As far as pet care, people are spending 40,000$ on operations on their pets, and thousands a month on pet health insurance. People are spending 20/hour for dog walkers, the average Seattle dog owner spends up to 9,000$ / year on their dog (source wagwalking.com). No one says you have to pay nannys and private schooling. thats on you. that's about on par with a child, and someone pointed out a dog only lives 20 years, that just means your 'investment' is less well spent and support my claim pets are expensive. Also noting: you dont owe your kid anything after 18, they should be grown adults capable of making their own money and decisions after that point.

LUmBULtERA 2y ago

>people value material possessions more than having babies Eh, for people in my area at least, childcare for one new baby could is easily $20k-$45k/year, whereas I don't know of anyone personally who spends anywhere near that much a year on non-necessity material possessions. Plus all the other costs of a baby. Just another 1 room in an apartment could also be another $500-$1000 a month. Plus all the other baby-related costs. You could easily be talking about an order of magnitude difference in child-cost vs. typical spending on non-necessity material possessions per year.

autokad 2y ago
you can easily do that in your house and vehicle. people way over spend on those, especially now. people are over spending on a lot of things that quickly add up, since we aren't talking about a 'specific person' its hard to say what. For example, people buy phones every year (1,000$ a pop), eating out can cost many thousands, etc. Its also not uncommon for people to buy 20,000$ watches or hand bags.

darth_avocado 2y ago

Pets are still cheaper than kids. And the longest you'll be on the hook for is 13-15 years if you're lucky. > Because people have no problem spending tons of money on other things It's like saying I'm spending my money on Starbucks, and that's why I can't afford kids. The reality is that childcare is astronomically expensive. Me and my wife both work in tech, and we've had the conversation where it made more financial sense if one of us quit our jobs to raise the kids. Unfortunately we can't do that because covering mortgage would become a problem. The solution: don't have more kids.

autokad 2y ago
you answered your own question, you bought a house you couldn't afford and choose material items (a house) over children. I work in tech too, and I'm probably about median TC in tech. With my income alone I could support children and a wife, so if you are both working and can't afford it: you bought way to much house.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  > With my income alone I could support children and a wife Let me guess, you bought a house before 2021 and are locked in on 3% or less mortgage. > you bought a house you couldn't afford I bought a 3 bed not so big house. Are you going to tell me that’s too big for a family with 2 kids? Or are you going to tell me I should’ve been born earlier to buy the same house for cheaper and lock in those rates?
  - autokad 2y ago
    > Let me guess, you bought a house before 2021 and are locked in on 3% or less mortgage. yes, and I want to buy a new home but these prices are unreasonable, so I am not. unfortunately, I also rent because I had to move for work; however, who said you need to buy? I am not saying you are wrong for doing so, that's what you wanted to do and good on you for that. but you made a conscious choice to choose buying a home over having kids. you could have rented, or like me you could just wait. my friend and her husband both work with a combined income of 250,000. They live in Brooklyn, NYC and have THREE kids, and still travel, etc. I'm guessing you and your wife is making more then that. if you can't support 3 kids at your combined income: You are over spending. > Or are you going to tell me I should’ve been born earlier to buy the same house for cheaper and lock in those rates? now you are just being rediculous / toxic, so will ignore that.

danielbln 2y ago

I have a pet and a child, and I'm not sure what's not to get. A cat or dog lives about 20 years, is magnitudes easier to raise than a child and comes with magnitudes less liability, responsibility and life changes. They are not interchangeable, no matter how much we anthropomorphize them. That being said, our cat is still family and I would do anything in my power to ensure her well-being and would be absolutely devastated and grieving when she passes.

schmidtleonard 2y ago

> people value material possessions more than having babies. Your example was spending ~$10k/yr on vet bills. Press (X) to doubt, but if you really think babies cost less than this, you are wildly misinformed.

darth_avocado 2y ago
You just need to look at how much diapers or formula costs to come down to reality.
- autokad 2y ago
  what are you talking about, diapers cost 840$ / year. formula, between 800 and 3k depending.

autoexec 2y ago

> Because people have no problem spending tons of money on other things We have record numbers of Americans who can't afford their rent, record numbers of utility disconnections for non-pay, household debt is at all time highs and people are struggling with the rising costs of food. In whatever bubble you live your life in, people might seem like people "have no problems spending tons of money" but looking at the state of things in general it's very clear that Americans are struggling.

autokad 2y ago
we also have record amount spent on travel, online purchases, and all sorts of non essentials. People are buying homes that have gone up by over 2x in the last 4 years, where monthy costs of their mortgage are like 50% of their total compensation. They didnt need to buy that house, rent is very cheap compared to the cost of homes right now.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > we also have record amount spent on travel That's heavily skewed by the wealthy. Most Americans can't afford to take a vacation at all. (https://www.newsweek.com/americans-ca-no-longer-afford-vacation-1920045 https://www.newsweek.com/americans-ca-no-longer-afford-vacat...), online purchases are at record highs every year (since 2009) and the overall trend is that online purchases have increased since the early/mid 2000s and that's not expected to change any time soon. > People are buying homes that have gone up by over 2x in the last 4 years Very rich people and investors (including foreign investors) have been buying homes. Foreign investment is slowing down because of the high prices. Current transactions are at "recessionary lows" and "The average home is still unaffordable for most potential buyers" (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/25/home-price-growth-slows-what-it-means-for-buyers-and-sellers.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/25/home-price-growth-slows-what...). Mostly people just aren't buying houses. In 2023 homes sales were at their lowest since the mid 90s (https://www.wsj.com/economy/housing/home-sales-likely-fell-to-15-year-low-in-2023-3da220e1 https://www.wsj.com/economy/housing/home-sales-likely-fell-t... or here (no paywall issues) : https://www.housingwire.com/articles/just-4-09-million-existing-homes-were-sold-in-2023/ https://www.housingwire.com/articles/just-4-09-million-exist...)