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* too expensive; * not enough daycare even if you do have money; * not enough space at home; * cities that are not made for parents and small kids; * atomiz

* too expensive; * not enough daycare even if you do have money; * not enough space at home; * cities that are not made for parents and small kids; * atomized communities with very little help;

lumost 2y ago
The last one can be brutal. It's tough to maintain friendships with people who don't have kids, it's doubly tough to form friendships with new people who have kids. Although it's mildly easier to build acquaintances.
- D13Fd 2y ago
  This is so true. It's socially isolating. We don't have the support structures we had even back when I was a kid, let alone 20 or 40 years before that, when society was really built around families having kids. I can only wonder what it will be like in another 20 years, when my children are grown up.
- mlinhares 2y ago
  While unfortunate we were able to make friends with other people with kids so there's some sharing of responsibility (send receive kids at home when they need to be watched over) but this doesn't seem to be the norm here. Feels like most people are raising their kids by themselves.
- kilolima 2y ago
  Because people with kids won't stop talking about how wonderful their kids are.
tonymet 2y ago
it's always been more expensive. daycare traditionally was only for aristocrats. multigenerational families lived in smaller apartments and cabins than single people do today. Cities used to be filled with sewage, horses and smoke. I'll concede the point on communities and I think that's a bigger contributor than economics.
- mlinhares 2y ago
  Couldn't care less about what people did or lived like 100 years ago. I live today and I'm either going to provide my kids a good live and have a good life myself or not have kids. I don't need to have kids for them to be my labor, that's not how this works anymore.
  - tonymet 2y ago
    then it's not about economics it's something else
  - locococo 2y ago
    agree, the argument that the economy needs more warm bodies is not exactly inspirational.
    - tonymet 2y ago
      you're right, people aren't having kids because they are not inspired. that is one of the main reasons. but that's not economics, it's philosophical and theological
  - darth_avocado 2y ago
    Exactly. Even 50 years ago, you could not even go to the high school and afford a middle class lifestyle for your kids. Not the case anymore. There’s no point comparing today with history.
- taylodl 2y ago
  You don't have to go back to the 19th century to make your point things are different today. Just go back to the 20th century - what did the Boomers do? - They had latchkey children - no daycare required! - "Free range" children was a thing and nobody got arrested for it! - There were such things as "Block Parents", people in the neighborhood who looked out for all the kids. Obviously this was before "stranger danger." - Everybody looked after everybody else's kids, even in tenement buildings. - People lived close to where the grew up and generally had relatives nearby to help out when all of the above failed. Nowadays, most of this is gone. In short, in just a mere 40 to 50 years, the cost of having children has skyrocketed. Add in the cost-of-living expenses have skyrocketed for younger people and you get the result that fewer people are having children and those who are having children are having them much later.
darth_avocado 2y ago
* too expensive * not enough daycare even if you do have money - again too expensive to hire a private nanny * not enough space at home - too expensive to buy a bigger home * cities that are not made for parents and small kids - too expensive to move to cities that are Again, I think almost everything can be reduced to "it just is too expensive".
araes 2y ago
Some that aren't quite so idealized: * Don't care - children are not a priority (often "I am the priority") * Get wealthy - children oppose money gaining * Get famous - children correlate poorly with rapid fame rise * Get sex - children correlate poorly with being a player * Work less - children take work (if not already wealthy) * America - https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/09/19/americans-feelings-about-politics-polarization-and-the-tone-of-political-discourse/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/09/19/americans-fe... * Sinking ship - enshitification everywhere, murder stats on all news, why have kids in a latrine? * Success correlation - wealth and success correlated with starting wealth. why have kids? * Negative wage slave experiences - hey kids, here's your collar, just like mine. * Abortion access - americans would fight to the death other over abortion access. wait, they already do. "a gift to Jesus on his birthday." * Health care (not specifically kids) - 10x all other locations. * Food - pointlessly expensive. so much land it's nonsense humans starve. they fight to squander it all.
- autoexec 2y ago
  > Sinking ship - enshitification everywhere, murder stats on all news, why have kids in a latrine? Don't forget climate change! The latrine is also on fire.

* too expensive; * not enough daycare even if you do have money; * not enough space at home; * cities that are not made for parents and small kids; * atomized communities with very little help;

lumost 2y ago

The last one can be brutal. It's tough to maintain friendships with people who don't have kids, it's doubly tough to form friendships with new people who have kids. Although it's mildly easier to build acquaintances.

D13Fd 2y ago
This is so true. It's socially isolating. We don't have the support structures we had even back when I was a kid, let alone 20 or 40 years before that, when society was really built around families having kids. I can only wonder what it will be like in another 20 years, when my children are grown up.
mlinhares 2y ago
While unfortunate we were able to make friends with other people with kids so there's some sharing of responsibility (send receive kids at home when they need to be watched over) but this doesn't seem to be the norm here. Feels like most people are raising their kids by themselves.
kilolima 2y ago
Because people with kids won't stop talking about how wonderful their kids are.

tonymet 2y ago

it's always been more expensive. daycare traditionally was only for aristocrats. multigenerational families lived in smaller apartments and cabins than single people do today. Cities used to be filled with sewage, horses and smoke. I'll concede the point on communities and I think that's a bigger contributor than economics.

mlinhares 2y ago
Couldn't care less about what people did or lived like 100 years ago. I live today and I'm either going to provide my kids a good live and have a good life myself or not have kids. I don't need to have kids for them to be my labor, that's not how this works anymore.
- tonymet 2y ago
  then it's not about economics it's something else
- locococo 2y ago
  agree, the argument that the economy needs more warm bodies is not exactly inspirational.
  - tonymet 2y ago
    you're right, people aren't having kids because they are not inspired. that is one of the main reasons. but that's not economics, it's philosophical and theological
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  Exactly. Even 50 years ago, you could not even go to the high school and afford a middle class lifestyle for your kids. Not the case anymore. There’s no point comparing today with history.
taylodl 2y ago
You don't have to go back to the 19th century to make your point things are different today. Just go back to the 20th century - what did the Boomers do? - They had latchkey children - no daycare required! - "Free range" children was a thing and nobody got arrested for it! - There were such things as "Block Parents", people in the neighborhood who looked out for all the kids. Obviously this was before "stranger danger." - Everybody looked after everybody else's kids, even in tenement buildings. - People lived close to where the grew up and generally had relatives nearby to help out when all of the above failed. Nowadays, most of this is gone. In short, in just a mere 40 to 50 years, the cost of having children has skyrocketed. Add in the cost-of-living expenses have skyrocketed for younger people and you get the result that fewer people are having children and those who are having children are having them much later.

darth_avocado 2y ago

* too expensive * not enough daycare even if you do have money - again too expensive to hire a private nanny * not enough space at home - too expensive to buy a bigger home * cities that are not made for parents and small kids - too expensive to move to cities that are Again, I think almost everything can be reduced to "it just is too expensive".

araes 2y ago

Some that aren't quite so idealized: * Don't care - children are not a priority (often "I am the priority") * Get wealthy - children oppose money gaining * Get famous - children correlate poorly with rapid fame rise * Get sex - children correlate poorly with being a player * Work less - children take work (if not already wealthy) * America - https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/09/19/americans-feelings-about-politics-polarization-and-the-tone-of-political-discourse/ https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/09/19/americans-fe... * Sinking ship - enshitification everywhere, murder stats on all news, why have kids in a latrine? * Success correlation - wealth and success correlated with starting wealth. why have kids? * Negative wage slave experiences - hey kids, here's your collar, just like mine. * Abortion access - americans would fight to the death other over abortion access. wait, they already do. "a gift to Jesus on his birthday." * Health care (not specifically kids) - 10x all other locations. * Food - pointlessly expensive. so much land it's nonsense humans starve. they fight to squander it all.

autoexec 2y ago
> Sinking ship - enshitification everywhere, murder stats on all news, why have kids in a latrine? Don't forget climate change! The latrine is also on fire.