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> caffeine addicts are standing in line at Starbucks Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjo

> caffeine addicts are standing in line at Starbucks Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Caffeine pills are an absurdity to me because I only drink coffee for the taste. Why suffer the unwanted effects of a drug without the enjoyment that it’s supposed to come with?

m463 2y ago
I think true coffee lovers like decaf (lets them drink more coffee) hard to get good decaf though, it seems to me like trying to buy diet donuts.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  Decaf that tastes like caf would be great. Unfortunately it seems to be impossible. Or at least I haven’t found it yet. The standard processes used to remove the caffeine seem to also remove enough of the other compounds to make it noticeably more watery and thin.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    It’s possible, but very difficult. The problem isn’t really the removal of compounds, as far as I can tell, but moreso the change to the bean composition itself. Because the porosity increases so much roasting the decaf beans is much more difficult. Additionally, beans grind differently due to their porosity and brittleness. Basically, this means both the roaster and the grinder of the beans (and preparer of the coffee) need to change their behaviors slightly. Then, at the end of it, the coffee stales much faster so it’ll go bad faster.
    - xanderlewis 2y ago
      Interesting. I do need to try some more decaf from roasters who know what they’re doing…
      - Kirby64 2y ago
        I roast everything myself so I can’t really comment on roasters, but I’d suggest looking for Swiss water processed decaf. Tends to cost more… but I think there’s an associated prestige that makes people care more about the bean quality if you pay for expensive processing.
  - ectospheno 2y ago
    Caffeine tastes bitter. This is why decaf has to taste different. If you start with a naturally bitter coffee then you can make decaf taste more like what people expect coffee to be. This is my theory on why Starbucks decaf tastes as good as it does.
bitwize 2y ago
This is Hackernews. Do things because you enjoy them? How can you enjoy life if you don't measure, optimize, and min-max every little thing, and write a little Rust program to track all the data you can post to Show HN? All food is fuel, nothing more, don't treat it as some experience to be savored.
- KronisLV 2y ago
  A bit of an exaggerated contrarian comment, sure. But at the same time sometimes it is a little bit like that - some might like the consistency of caffeine pills, they sure were helpful for me. Others just won't like the taste of coffee that much, I know that I usually go for something with lactose free milk and sugar, otherwise it's a bit unpalatable and too bitter. I don't necessarily have a good taste in coffee anyways, the instant stuff is good enough for me. Similarly, I'd like to replace maybe 10-20% of my food intake or something with powdered fibre and protein (or something else) to hopefully feel a little less hungry without resorting to high calorie options, because right now I'm getting fat and the hunger I feel is straight up stronger than my willpower at times. Vegetables alone or other healthy snacks do absolutely nothing for that, sucks to have to deal with that. Years ago I had no problem with "starving" myself when needed and maintaining whatever weight felt good, now I no longer have that ability as much. On the other hand, calling people who enjoy the taste or the experience of getting a fancy drink "caffeine addicts" is unkind and we'd do perfectly fine without belittling others. If they like their fancy drinks, that's cool!
dakial1 2y ago
Well, I don’t actually like the taste of coffee and really drink it because of the caffeine effect. I started drinking coffee at 26 because I got so tired after lunch that I almost passed out on my keyboard at work. This disappeared with the coffee intake. After years (I’m 42) I still don’t like the taste and don’t drink it at night or on weekends/holidays.
- snthpy 2y ago
  OT: I used to get that too until I switched to keto. I used to have tuna mayo sandwiches for lunch. Then I cut out the sandwich (I.e. bread) and just had tuna mayo and no longer got that after lunch low and stayed fuller for longer. It was quite amazing to me that I was fuller from eating less. You don't need to go full keto but try cutting out high GI carbs at lunch and see if it makes a difference.
  - theGnuMe 2y ago
    You also get fuller eating less as you age.
scotty79 2y ago
If you like the taste, just drink decaf. There's really no reason to ingest caffeine if you just like coffee.
- pjerem 2y ago
  Also chicory is pretty good. I thought I hated it because the few times I tasted it it was just cheap industrial chicory. In fact, once you find a nice quality brand, it’s actually a delicious coffee replacement. Not really the same taste (but a nice one too) but it sounds like the likeliness of the color and of the bitterness does the job of tricking my brain into considering it’s the same thing, at least "emotionally". Now I just like them both and I can swap them when I want.
wafflemaker 2y ago
It's possible that your taste for coffee developed at least partially because it contains dopaminergic narcotic inside. "He doesn't like cocaine, he just likes the smell" (from the song Too much Yayo by The Streets). That's how drugs work, they throw a kind of spell on you, so that, from your trippy perspective, you think that you're not addicted.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  So it’s just a coincidence that I also like (relatively less caffeinated) tea, herbal infusions (no caffeine — or any active ingredient — at all), and other such beverages? Even if what you suggest is true, it might equally apply to listening to music, going for a run, and other activities that induce a pleasurable physiological response. I’ll say something that seems to be incredibly controversial around these parts: caffeine is basically harmless, and so is alcohol when consumed in moderation. I guess most people just don’t understand what ‘moderation’ actually means — it’s less than you might think. Cocaine, of course, is not harmless at all. > they throw a kind of spell on you, so that, from your trippy perspective, you think that you're not addicted. Sounds like bro science to me. Empirically, most addicts know they’re addicted even if they won’t admit it.
luqtas 2y ago
i think you are bitting the dust of getting used to the taste of a drug, just like people who drink wine, beer etc. these are literally toxic & you get a natural avoidance response the 1° time you try, with very rare cases of acceptance without repulse
- skhunted 2y ago
  I never understood the acquired taste thing. If I don’t like the taste the first time I try something then there won’t be a second time. Why acquire a taste for something you didn’t originally like?
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    It’s like asking ‘why practice an instrument you can’t already play?’. If you only try each thing once and give up, you’ll get stuck in a local flavour maximum. Basically, what I’m saying is: it’s perfectly possible that the best experiences you can have are those that require a certain amount of less-pleasant experiences preceding them. You can stick with the medium-level experiences and you’ll never try anything bad twice, but you’ll also never discover things that might change your life.
  - Kirby64 2y ago
    Preparation of a dish, varietals, and many other things (such as setting, accompaniments, etc) can impact taste. Just because you don’t like something one time doesn’t mean you wouldn’t in the future. You’d miss out on many great experiences this way.
  - xolox 2y ago
    I got into fermented foods to improve my health, and quite a few of these are acquired tastes for me (and surely also for lots of other people). Milk kefir, water kefir, kombucha, tempeh, koji, natto, these things challenge the taste palate of someone who grew up in the Western world without exposure to fermented foods (e.g. a strong sourness to foods and drinks). I grew to appreciate and in some cases love them because I know what they do for my health. Nowadays I regularly crave fermented foods, but when I started taking them I had to force myself to get accustomed to them.
guhidalg 2y ago
> Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Not the OP, but to respond to your question I think that Starbucks is actually hitting its customers with a triple-whammy of caffeine, sugar, and fat that most brains can't resist addiction to. Are you sure they actually enjoy Starbucks coffee and not its addictive components?
- hooverd 2y ago
  Are you implying that every Starbucks customer is buying a frappechino?
- kennethh 2y ago
  Was a bit surprised to see that Cold Drinks Now Represent 75 Percent of Starbucks’ Sales. I am guessing most of these cold drinks contains an huge amount of sugar and other sweeteners.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  > Are you sure they actually enjoy Starbucks coffee and not its addictive components? That's the same thing. Enjoying the components of something is basically the definition of enjoying something.
- galleywest200 2y ago
  Not OP but I generally only order black coffee when I go to Starbucks, so yes.
- elevaet 2y ago
  It's that triple-whammy plus the comfort of consuming the spell that Starbucks has woven for their customers. I think for a lot of people buying a "special" coffee/thing at Starbucks squeezes that "I'm treating myself" gland just right.
Apocryphon 2y ago
Are they ordering decaf?
- jayd16 2y ago
  Yes, sometimes.
- hangonhn 2y ago
  Many people enjoy both the effects and the taste/experience of drinking coffee.
- david-gpu 2y ago
  It is my understanding that decaf coffee is typically made from poor quality beans, because consumers typically expect decaf to cost as much as regular coffee even though the decaffeination process means an additional cost. For decades I only drank decaf and only in the past few years I have replaced my morning cup with regular coffee because it's so much easier (and cheaper!) to find good beans. In other words, there are good reasons to consume caffeinated coffee besides an addiction to caffeine.
- 0x457 2y ago
  I make coffee at home and I always have decaf beans on hand. Sometimes I just want to: a) Go through a process of making espresso (yay coffee toys^Wtools) b) Just want to drink some coffee because of its taste I eye-ball how much caffeine I consume and cut-off myself waaaay before the guideline and 10 hours before target bedtime. Given that caffeine half life is about 5 hours it works out perfectly. However, if still want coffee due to any of the reasons above - I make decaff.
booleandilemma 2y ago
Overly competitive people over-optimizing everything. Why waste the time drinking a cup of coffee when you could just swallow a pill? The only enjoyment these people get are from beating others. They're not capable of appreciating a cup of coffee, or they think they're too busy to. One of them is reading this comment right now and thinking about adding "appreciate coffee" to their calendar.
- skeaker 2y ago
  This seems too defensive/aggressive. The pill guy made his case very well I think, he wanted the benefits of caffeine in a consistent dosage and pills fit that purpose. His motivation is inherently different from someone who wants to enjoy a cup of coffee, but having a different goal doesn't mean your goal is better or worse than someone else's. Nobody's "beating" anyone, and "these people" certainly don't only get enjoyment from beating others.
neves 2y ago
I agree with you about the experience, but nobody who really likes coffee goes to Starbuck for the taste:-). They are really addicted
- out-of-ideas 2y ago
  we used to take a 10m walk to a SB just to gtfo the office, to have a walk after the hour+ commute, to people watch, and to BS with the coworkers. it just also happened to be a great source of hot sugar that went well with the baileys. addiction to having a mental break from the stresses, yes, but in no way addicted to the caffine (nor sugar)
- dnissley 2y ago
  It might be true that they're addicted to caffeine, but it's likely also true that they're addicted to Starbucks
  - TaylorAlexander 2y ago
    Well with a place like Starbucks, they might be addicted to the sugar.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  You do have a point there.
- grumple 2y ago
  Starbucks is only a little worse than boutique coffee shops in my experience, but they are fast, conveniently located, open earlier, open later, pay their employees well (for a coffee shop) and pay for their employees' educations.
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Their coffee is significantly worse tasting (especially if you drink it black, as I often do). With milk it’s perfectly acceptable, especially if you go for their ‘blonde’ roast. I totally agree about opening times! Starbucks is often the only place open after 5 or so.

m463 2y ago

I think true coffee lovers like decaf (lets them drink more coffee) hard to get good decaf though, it seems to me like trying to buy diet donuts.

xanderlewis 2y ago
Decaf that tastes like caf would be great. Unfortunately it seems to be impossible. Or at least I haven’t found it yet. The standard processes used to remove the caffeine seem to also remove enough of the other compounds to make it noticeably more watery and thin.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  It’s possible, but very difficult. The problem isn’t really the removal of compounds, as far as I can tell, but moreso the change to the bean composition itself. Because the porosity increases so much roasting the decaf beans is much more difficult. Additionally, beans grind differently due to their porosity and brittleness. Basically, this means both the roaster and the grinder of the beans (and preparer of the coffee) need to change their behaviors slightly. Then, at the end of it, the coffee stales much faster so it’ll go bad faster.
  - xanderlewis 2y ago
    Interesting. I do need to try some more decaf from roasters who know what they’re doing…
    - Kirby64 2y ago
      I roast everything myself so I can’t really comment on roasters, but I’d suggest looking for Swiss water processed decaf. Tends to cost more… but I think there’s an associated prestige that makes people care more about the bean quality if you pay for expensive processing.
- ectospheno 2y ago
  Caffeine tastes bitter. This is why decaf has to taste different. If you start with a naturally bitter coffee then you can make decaf taste more like what people expect coffee to be. This is my theory on why Starbucks decaf tastes as good as it does.

bitwize 2y ago

This is Hackernews. Do things because you enjoy them? How can you enjoy life if you don't measure, optimize, and min-max every little thing, and write a little Rust program to track all the data you can post to Show HN? All food is fuel, nothing more, don't treat it as some experience to be savored.

KronisLV 2y ago
A bit of an exaggerated contrarian comment, sure. But at the same time sometimes it is a little bit like that - some might like the consistency of caffeine pills, they sure were helpful for me. Others just won't like the taste of coffee that much, I know that I usually go for something with lactose free milk and sugar, otherwise it's a bit unpalatable and too bitter. I don't necessarily have a good taste in coffee anyways, the instant stuff is good enough for me. Similarly, I'd like to replace maybe 10-20% of my food intake or something with powdered fibre and protein (or something else) to hopefully feel a little less hungry without resorting to high calorie options, because right now I'm getting fat and the hunger I feel is straight up stronger than my willpower at times. Vegetables alone or other healthy snacks do absolutely nothing for that, sucks to have to deal with that. Years ago I had no problem with "starving" myself when needed and maintaining whatever weight felt good, now I no longer have that ability as much. On the other hand, calling people who enjoy the taste or the experience of getting a fancy drink "caffeine addicts" is unkind and we'd do perfectly fine without belittling others. If they like their fancy drinks, that's cool!

dakial1 2y ago

Well, I don’t actually like the taste of coffee and really drink it because of the caffeine effect. I started drinking coffee at 26 because I got so tired after lunch that I almost passed out on my keyboard at work. This disappeared with the coffee intake. After years (I’m 42) I still don’t like the taste and don’t drink it at night or on weekends/holidays.

snthpy 2y ago
OT: I used to get that too until I switched to keto. I used to have tuna mayo sandwiches for lunch. Then I cut out the sandwich (I.e. bread) and just had tuna mayo and no longer got that after lunch low and stayed fuller for longer. It was quite amazing to me that I was fuller from eating less. You don't need to go full keto but try cutting out high GI carbs at lunch and see if it makes a difference.
- theGnuMe 2y ago
  You also get fuller eating less as you age.

scotty79 2y ago

If you like the taste, just drink decaf. There's really no reason to ingest caffeine if you just like coffee.

pjerem 2y ago
Also chicory is pretty good. I thought I hated it because the few times I tasted it it was just cheap industrial chicory. In fact, once you find a nice quality brand, it’s actually a delicious coffee replacement. Not really the same taste (but a nice one too) but it sounds like the likeliness of the color and of the bitterness does the job of tricking my brain into considering it’s the same thing, at least "emotionally". Now I just like them both and I can swap them when I want.

wafflemaker 2y ago

It's possible that your taste for coffee developed at least partially because it contains dopaminergic narcotic inside. "He doesn't like cocaine, he just likes the smell" (from the song Too much Yayo by The Streets). That's how drugs work, they throw a kind of spell on you, so that, from your trippy perspective, you think that you're not addicted.

xanderlewis 2y ago
So it’s just a coincidence that I also like (relatively less caffeinated) tea, herbal infusions (no caffeine — or any active ingredient — at all), and other such beverages? Even if what you suggest is true, it might equally apply to listening to music, going for a run, and other activities that induce a pleasurable physiological response. I’ll say something that seems to be incredibly controversial around these parts: caffeine is basically harmless, and so is alcohol when consumed in moderation. I guess most people just don’t understand what ‘moderation’ actually means — it’s less than you might think. Cocaine, of course, is not harmless at all. > they throw a kind of spell on you, so that, from your trippy perspective, you think that you're not addicted. Sounds like bro science to me. Empirically, most addicts know they’re addicted even if they won’t admit it.

luqtas 2y ago

i think you are bitting the dust of getting used to the taste of a drug, just like people who drink wine, beer etc. these are literally toxic & you get a natural avoidance response the 1° time you try, with very rare cases of acceptance without repulse

skhunted 2y ago
I never understood the acquired taste thing. If I don’t like the taste the first time I try something then there won’t be a second time. Why acquire a taste for something you didn’t originally like?
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  It’s like asking ‘why practice an instrument you can’t already play?’. If you only try each thing once and give up, you’ll get stuck in a local flavour maximum. Basically, what I’m saying is: it’s perfectly possible that the best experiences you can have are those that require a certain amount of less-pleasant experiences preceding them. You can stick with the medium-level experiences and you’ll never try anything bad twice, but you’ll also never discover things that might change your life.
- Kirby64 2y ago
  Preparation of a dish, varietals, and many other things (such as setting, accompaniments, etc) can impact taste. Just because you don’t like something one time doesn’t mean you wouldn’t in the future. You’d miss out on many great experiences this way.
- xolox 2y ago
  I got into fermented foods to improve my health, and quite a few of these are acquired tastes for me (and surely also for lots of other people). Milk kefir, water kefir, kombucha, tempeh, koji, natto, these things challenge the taste palate of someone who grew up in the Western world without exposure to fermented foods (e.g. a strong sourness to foods and drinks). I grew to appreciate and in some cases love them because I know what they do for my health. Nowadays I regularly crave fermented foods, but when I started taking them I had to force myself to get accustomed to them.

guhidalg 2y ago

> Have you considered that those people queuing outside Starbucks might be drinking coffee because they enjoy the whole experience? Not the OP, but to respond to your question I think that Starbucks is actually hitting its customers with a triple-whammy of caffeine, sugar, and fat that most brains can't resist addiction to. Are you sure they actually enjoy Starbucks coffee and not its addictive components?

hooverd 2y ago
Are you implying that every Starbucks customer is buying a frappechino?
kennethh 2y ago
Was a bit surprised to see that Cold Drinks Now Represent 75 Percent of Starbucks’ Sales. I am guessing most of these cold drinks contains an huge amount of sugar and other sweeteners.
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
> Are you sure they actually enjoy Starbucks coffee and not its addictive components? That's the same thing. Enjoying the components of something is basically the definition of enjoying something.
galleywest200 2y ago
Not OP but I generally only order black coffee when I go to Starbucks, so yes.
elevaet 2y ago
It's that triple-whammy plus the comfort of consuming the spell that Starbucks has woven for their customers. I think for a lot of people buying a "special" coffee/thing at Starbucks squeezes that "I'm treating myself" gland just right.

Apocryphon 2y ago

Are they ordering decaf?

jayd16 2y ago
Yes, sometimes.
hangonhn 2y ago
Many people enjoy both the effects and the taste/experience of drinking coffee.
david-gpu 2y ago
It is my understanding that decaf coffee is typically made from poor quality beans, because consumers typically expect decaf to cost as much as regular coffee even though the decaffeination process means an additional cost. For decades I only drank decaf and only in the past few years I have replaced my morning cup with regular coffee because it's so much easier (and cheaper!) to find good beans. In other words, there are good reasons to consume caffeinated coffee besides an addiction to caffeine.
0x457 2y ago
I make coffee at home and I always have decaf beans on hand. Sometimes I just want to: a) Go through a process of making espresso (yay coffee toys^Wtools) b) Just want to drink some coffee because of its taste I eye-ball how much caffeine I consume and cut-off myself waaaay before the guideline and 10 hours before target bedtime. Given that caffeine half life is about 5 hours it works out perfectly. However, if still want coffee due to any of the reasons above - I make decaff.

booleandilemma 2y ago

Overly competitive people over-optimizing everything. Why waste the time drinking a cup of coffee when you could just swallow a pill? The only enjoyment these people get are from beating others. They're not capable of appreciating a cup of coffee, or they think they're too busy to. One of them is reading this comment right now and thinking about adding "appreciate coffee" to their calendar.

skeaker 2y ago
This seems too defensive/aggressive. The pill guy made his case very well I think, he wanted the benefits of caffeine in a consistent dosage and pills fit that purpose. His motivation is inherently different from someone who wants to enjoy a cup of coffee, but having a different goal doesn't mean your goal is better or worse than someone else's. Nobody's "beating" anyone, and "these people" certainly don't only get enjoyment from beating others.

neves 2y ago

I agree with you about the experience, but nobody who really likes coffee goes to Starbuck for the taste:-). They are really addicted

out-of-ideas 2y ago
we used to take a 10m walk to a SB just to gtfo the office, to have a walk after the hour+ commute, to people watch, and to BS with the coworkers. it just also happened to be a great source of hot sugar that went well with the baileys. addiction to having a mental break from the stresses, yes, but in no way addicted to the caffine (nor sugar)
dnissley 2y ago
It might be true that they're addicted to caffeine, but it's likely also true that they're addicted to Starbucks
- TaylorAlexander 2y ago
  Well with a place like Starbucks, they might be addicted to the sugar.
xanderlewis 2y ago
You do have a point there.
grumple 2y ago
Starbucks is only a little worse than boutique coffee shops in my experience, but they are fast, conveniently located, open earlier, open later, pay their employees well (for a coffee shop) and pay for their employees' educations.
- xanderlewis 2y ago
  Their coffee is significantly worse tasting (especially if you drink it black, as I often do). With milk it’s perfectly acceptable, especially if you go for their ‘blonde’ roast. I totally agree about opening times! Starbucks is often the only place open after 5 or so.