7 ms·

Jury Verdict: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18414221/457/ryanair-dac-v-booking-holdings-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18414221/457/ryanair-da

Jury Verdict: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18414221/457/ryanair-dac-v-booking-holdings-inc/ https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18414221/457/ryanair-da... > Part E: Computer Fraud an Abuse Act Loss > Did Ryanair prove by a preponderance of evidence that it suffered actual economic harm caused by Booking.com violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and, if yes, state the amount. > X Yes _ No > $ 5000 > Part E Nominal Damages > $ 0 > Part F: Punitive Damages > $0 I know Rynair won the lawsuit but uh, having to pay only 5k sounds like a win for Booking.com

eli 2y ago
Yeah but they have to stop doing it
- lesuorac 2y ago
  Or what? They'll have to pay another 5k for 4 years of access (lawsuit was filed in 2020)?
  - mywittyname 2y ago
    Worst case: An injunction is filed and they have to shut down. Likely outcome: they negotiate a deal with RyanAir for access to their data & API.
  - eli 2y ago
    At the least, they would find out real fast how big those punitive damages can get when it's a repeated and willful violation. CFAA isn't a joke - there are potential criminal penalties to executives and others within the company.
    - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
      Could you give examples please. I looked at Wikipedia [0] and did a quick Google but didn't turn up any examples of punishment of C-suite in these circumstances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act
      - eli 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure C-suite executives are not officially exempt from criminal laws that apply to everyone else, but I guess the Supreme Court may yet rule otherwise.
ActionHank 2y ago
This sets a precedent going forward that will impact Booking.com and many other services that do the same thing. I would imagine that it is also a nice foundation for cases against AI training data scraped from sites.
- SteveNuts 2y ago
  Pretty soon every single website will be hidden behind a login page
  - TechDebtDevin 2y ago
    Yeah but then they'll have an unauthenticated API, I see this often. Website owners will also never stop scraping and prosecuting the owner of every crawler (who can obfuscate their identity anyways) is impossible. Captchas are going to increasingly become more obsolete. It's a fools errand to spend resources fighting scrapers. Edit (non cancerous URL) https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png
    - ffpip 2y ago
      https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png non-cancerous url
  - chrisjj 2y ago
    And pretty soon afterward, every one of those login page will be circumvented by a bot signup.
    - heavyset_go 2y ago
      Don't worry, you'll need to upload your photo ID to be able to login and do anything online.
      - remram 2y ago
        People who run bots have IDs.
mensetmanusman 2y ago
So they could hire some mechanical turks from Africa to type prices into an Excel sheet for $5000.
- miroljub 2y ago
  Why Africa? Why not southern Wyoming?
  - mensetmanusman 2y ago
    It’s the openAI way.
    - alwa 2y ago
      For context, OpenAI recently caught flak from the less substantial organs of the American press for outsourcing RLHF/safety/content moderation tasks to a small SF firm called Sama (surely coincidental, eh @sama?). Sama hired workers in Kenya, Uganda, and India and paid them well above prevailing local wages, but the work involved the usual unpleasantness that content moderators have to deal with. Much ballyhooing about “neo-colonialism” followed. [0] https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/ https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/
      - chx 2y ago
        I refuse the framing of tech bros exploiting African workers as "Much ballyhooing about neo-colonialism".
        IncreasePosts 2y ago
        Offering locally competitive wages is exploiting? If a company is based in NYC, and has a branch in rural Ohio, are the Ohioans being exploited if they aren't paid as much as their NYC counterparts despite drastically reduced cost of living in rural Ohio?
dhx 2y ago
Given the two possible outcomes: 1. Jury verdict is "NO" to CFAA violations. 2. Jury verdict is "YES" to CFAA violations and the jury award $0. Is option (2) worse for Ryanair because it more negatively impacts any appeals process that they may have otherwise planned? Does the award of $0 become a precedent which is stronger than option (1) in deterring would-be CFAA litigants of the future?
- lesuorac 2y ago
  You cannot have option 2; jury instructions required that CFAA requires >= $5k of damages. ("If your answer to that question is no, do not answer the remaining questions in Section 1"). So, damages of 5k is strictly the lowest amount possible while also answering YES for CFAA.

eli 2y ago

Yeah but they have to stop doing it

lesuorac 2y ago
Or what? They'll have to pay another 5k for 4 years of access (lawsuit was filed in 2020)?
- mywittyname 2y ago
  Worst case: An injunction is filed and they have to shut down. Likely outcome: they negotiate a deal with RyanAir for access to their data & API.
- eli 2y ago
  At the least, they would find out real fast how big those punitive damages can get when it's a repeated and willful violation. CFAA isn't a joke - there are potential criminal penalties to executives and others within the company.
  - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
    Could you give examples please. I looked at Wikipedia [0] and did a quick Google but didn't turn up any examples of punishment of C-suite in these circumstances. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Fraud_and_Abuse_Act
    - eli 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure C-suite executives are not officially exempt from criminal laws that apply to everyone else, but I guess the Supreme Court may yet rule otherwise.

ActionHank 2y ago

This sets a precedent going forward that will impact Booking.com and many other services that do the same thing. I would imagine that it is also a nice foundation for cases against AI training data scraped from sites.

SteveNuts 2y ago
Pretty soon every single website will be hidden behind a login page
- TechDebtDevin 2y ago
  Yeah but then they'll have an unauthenticated API, I see this often. Website owners will also never stop scraping and prosecuting the owner of every crawler (who can obfuscate their identity anyways) is impossible. Captchas are going to increasingly become more obsolete. It's a fools errand to spend resources fighting scrapers. Edit (non cancerous URL) https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png
  - ffpip 2y ago
    https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png https://i.redd.it/o6xypg00uac91.png non-cancerous url
- chrisjj 2y ago
  And pretty soon afterward, every one of those login page will be circumvented by a bot signup.
  - heavyset_go 2y ago
    Don't worry, you'll need to upload your photo ID to be able to login and do anything online.
    - remram 2y ago
      People who run bots have IDs.

mensetmanusman 2y ago

So they could hire some mechanical turks from Africa to type prices into an Excel sheet for $5000.

miroljub 2y ago
Why Africa? Why not southern Wyoming?
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  It’s the openAI way.
  - alwa 2y ago
    For context, OpenAI recently caught flak from the less substantial organs of the American press for outsourcing RLHF/safety/content moderation tasks to a small SF firm called Sama (surely coincidental, eh @sama?). Sama hired workers in Kenya, Uganda, and India and paid them well above prevailing local wages, but the work involved the usual unpleasantness that content moderators have to deal with. Much ballyhooing about “neo-colonialism” followed. [0] https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/ https://time.com/6247678/openai-chatgpt-kenya-workers/
    - chx 2y ago
      I refuse the framing of tech bros exploiting African workers as "Much ballyhooing about neo-colonialism".
      - IncreasePosts 2y ago
        Offering locally competitive wages is exploiting? If a company is based in NYC, and has a branch in rural Ohio, are the Ohioans being exploited if they aren't paid as much as their NYC counterparts despite drastically reduced cost of living in rural Ohio?

dhx 2y ago

Given the two possible outcomes: 1. Jury verdict is "NO" to CFAA violations. 2. Jury verdict is "YES" to CFAA violations and the jury award $0. Is option (2) worse for Ryanair because it more negatively impacts any appeals process that they may have otherwise planned? Does the award of $0 become a precedent which is stronger than option (1) in deterring would-be CFAA litigants of the future?

lesuorac 2y ago
You cannot have option 2; jury instructions required that CFAA requires >= $5k of damages. ("If your answer to that question is no, do not answer the remaining questions in Section 1"). So, damages of 5k is strictly the lowest amount possible while also answering YES for CFAA.