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People do joke about being dangerous without their morning coffee, but I have yet to see a coffee addict breaking into vehicles to score their morning fix. Also

by nikanj 2y ago

People do joke about being dangerous without their morning coffee, but I have yet to see a coffee addict breaking into vehicles to score their morning fix. Also I have never had to worry someone is going to mug my loved ones to get some quick cash for a double-double. And have you ever heard of someone who skips important appointments because they stayed out getting high on caffeine instead Pretending caffeine is as detrimental to our society as e.g. fentanyl is prime intellectual dishonesty.

lolinder 2y ago
> Pretending caffeine is as detrimental to our society as e.g. fentanyl is prime intellectual dishonesty. These are your words, not OP's. OP isn't claiming that caffeine is as bad as any other drug. They're claiming that it, like other drugs, is likely to have negative health effects that outweigh positive ones and that it's interesting that it gets a special place in our culture while other drugs get banned and shunned. Nothing in that claim says that caffeine is as bad as the worst illegal drugs.
- anthony_d 2y ago
  > They're claiming that it, like other drugs, is likely to have negative health effects that outweigh positive ones That alone is a strong and unsupported statement. Drugs frequently involve tradeoffs, but saying the negative out weighs the positive is not the same thing.
amanaplanacanal 2y ago
Only drugs that have artificially high prices caused by having no legal source lead to addicts committing crime to find their habit. Caffeine and alcohol are cheap and easily available.
- gunapologist99 2y ago
  With all due respect, I wouldn't commit any crimes if caffeine was suddenly illegal. I'd have headaches for a few days and that'd be it.
  - itishappy 2y ago
    With all due respect, I've heard the exact same thing from a number of folks taking Opioids after surgery. They were right, fortunately, and navigated their withdrawal symptoms without incident. I'm sure you're right too, but it's not a particularly convincing argument. I've definitely seen behaviors that horrify me from some of the caffeine addicts in my life. I bet caffeine prohibition would lead to a rise in domestic disputes, for starters, followed by Starbucks speakeasys and coffee cartels.
    - gunapologist99 2y ago
      A Starbucks speakeasy sounds awesome actually.
    - guluarte 2y ago
      Withdraw from caffeine is not the same as opioids
    - jpalawaga 2y ago
      Comparing opioids to caffeine is also not a particularly convincing argument... Is your comment satire?
DontchaKnowit 2y ago
This is what the drug war has done to our minds. People would absolutely be burglarizing homes to feed their caffeine habit if caffeine wasn't dirt cheap due to the free market. If it were legal to produce meth your local meth-head would not be raiding your house for copper because it would be cheap enough that his minimum wage job could support his habit.' And frankly I've showed up to important events absolutely fucking geeked on caffeine, feeling like complete dogshit, but because caffeine use is normalized no one bats an eye.
- thecrash 2y ago
  Drug war bad, but I'm not sure these drugs can be equated so simply. Caffeine has a mild euphoric effect but not nearly as much as meth. Both caffeine users and meth users are prone to hyper-focused behavior loops - e.g. super meticulous house cleaning. But meth is so much more euphoric that the behaviors don't have to be intrinsically rewarding at all. For many people, when you feel that high, doing pretty much anything is rewarding. That's why you get weird behaviors on meth like people pulling out their hairs one by one, or completely disassembling a working TV. Those behaviors are not conducive to holding down most jobs. If our society did more work educating and supporting people in productively integrating their use of drugs into a functional lifestyle, maybe it would be less of a problem. Certainly there are some ways people could use meth that are positive. But I still think there's something about meth that makes it more likely to ruin lives than caffeine.
  - DontchaKnowit 2y ago
    I agree, but Id say theyre part of the same continuum rather than fundamentally different.
- saganus 2y ago
  It feels like the strength and type of withdrawal symptoms for each substance plays a big role here. I've only ever been addicted to caffeine and cigarettes and while my withdrawal symptoms were terrible (almost-disabling headaches, anxiety, etc) I don't think they were ever so bad that it would make me violent. As opposed to people I knew that were addicted to cocaine and meth which would go absolutely crazy for their next fix. In the particular case of the person that was addicted to cocaine, money was not an issue and would still become violent when the fix was not available, so I don't think it's necessarily a function of price or access to it. Of course, my sample size is very small but given that I also know a ton of people that quit cigarettes and caffeine without becoming violent, I would say withdrawal symptoms are probably a strong component on how violent people get.

by nikanj 2y ago

lolinder 2y ago

> Pretending caffeine is as detrimental to our society as e.g. fentanyl is prime intellectual dishonesty. These are your words, not OP's. OP isn't claiming that caffeine is as bad as any other drug. They're claiming that it, like other drugs, is likely to have negative health effects that outweigh positive ones and that it's interesting that it gets a special place in our culture while other drugs get banned and shunned. Nothing in that claim says that caffeine is as bad as the worst illegal drugs.

anthony_d 2y ago
> They're claiming that it, like other drugs, is likely to have negative health effects that outweigh positive ones That alone is a strong and unsupported statement. Drugs frequently involve tradeoffs, but saying the negative out weighs the positive is not the same thing.

amanaplanacanal 2y ago

Only drugs that have artificially high prices caused by having no legal source lead to addicts committing crime to find their habit. Caffeine and alcohol are cheap and easily available.

gunapologist99 2y ago
With all due respect, I wouldn't commit any crimes if caffeine was suddenly illegal. I'd have headaches for a few days and that'd be it.
- itishappy 2y ago
  With all due respect, I've heard the exact same thing from a number of folks taking Opioids after surgery. They were right, fortunately, and navigated their withdrawal symptoms without incident. I'm sure you're right too, but it's not a particularly convincing argument. I've definitely seen behaviors that horrify me from some of the caffeine addicts in my life. I bet caffeine prohibition would lead to a rise in domestic disputes, for starters, followed by Starbucks speakeasys and coffee cartels.
  - gunapologist99 2y ago
    A Starbucks speakeasy sounds awesome actually.
  - guluarte 2y ago
    Withdraw from caffeine is not the same as opioids
  - jpalawaga 2y ago
    Comparing opioids to caffeine is also not a particularly convincing argument... Is your comment satire?

DontchaKnowit 2y ago

This is what the drug war has done to our minds. People would absolutely be burglarizing homes to feed their caffeine habit if caffeine wasn't dirt cheap due to the free market. If it were legal to produce meth your local meth-head would not be raiding your house for copper because it would be cheap enough that his minimum wage job could support his habit.' And frankly I've showed up to important events absolutely fucking geeked on caffeine, feeling like complete dogshit, but because caffeine use is normalized no one bats an eye.

thecrash 2y ago
Drug war bad, but I'm not sure these drugs can be equated so simply. Caffeine has a mild euphoric effect but not nearly as much as meth. Both caffeine users and meth users are prone to hyper-focused behavior loops - e.g. super meticulous house cleaning. But meth is so much more euphoric that the behaviors don't have to be intrinsically rewarding at all. For many people, when you feel that high, doing pretty much anything is rewarding. That's why you get weird behaviors on meth like people pulling out their hairs one by one, or completely disassembling a working TV. Those behaviors are not conducive to holding down most jobs. If our society did more work educating and supporting people in productively integrating their use of drugs into a functional lifestyle, maybe it would be less of a problem. Certainly there are some ways people could use meth that are positive. But I still think there's something about meth that makes it more likely to ruin lives than caffeine.
- DontchaKnowit 2y ago
  I agree, but Id say theyre part of the same continuum rather than fundamentally different.
saganus 2y ago
It feels like the strength and type of withdrawal symptoms for each substance plays a big role here. I've only ever been addicted to caffeine and cigarettes and while my withdrawal symptoms were terrible (almost-disabling headaches, anxiety, etc) I don't think they were ever so bad that it would make me violent. As opposed to people I knew that were addicted to cocaine and meth which would go absolutely crazy for their next fix. In the particular case of the person that was addicted to cocaine, money was not an issue and would still become violent when the fix was not available, so I don't think it's necessarily a function of price or access to it. Of course, my sample size is very small but given that I also know a ton of people that quit cigarettes and caffeine without becoming violent, I would say withdrawal symptoms are probably a strong component on how violent people get.