4 ms·

Air traffic controller here: we have a mandatory requirement age of 56.

by dankvectorz 2y ago

arcanemachiner 2y ago
That's gotta be a pretty well-studied number.
- otterley 2y ago
  It isn't. Whether you're forced to retire should be calibrated to the individual's capabilities, not based on a statistical calculation.
  - account42 2y ago
    Assessments of individuals can be gamed. Hard objective limits cannot.
    - otterley 2y ago
      It's really difficult to game timed and proctored aptitude tests. We've refined these systems pretty well over time. I can't imagine how anyone would game a test like, say, the LSAT unless they had the answers in advance or fraudulently substituted someone to take the test for them. And both cases are pretty easy to detect nowadays.
standardUser 2y ago
You have a really strong union.
- buildsjets 2y ago
  You are joking, right? You cannot seriously claim that NATCA is anything but a paper tiger if you knew anything about the history of ATC unionization in the USA. President Regan fired all 11,000 members of the actual strong ATC union, PATCO, and barred them from government jobs for life. NATCA never bothered to negotiate their rights back. Some REALLY strong union. https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike
  - standardUser 2y ago
    They collect pensions in their 50's. I'm not sure what metric you judge a union by, but most people look at things like pay and medical and when they collect pensions.
    - arrosenberg 2y ago
      > I'm not sure what metric you judge a union by Their ability to collectively bargain effectively. It doesn’t matter how good their current compensation is - they aren’t getting the fair market rate without the ability to bargain as a union. Its an example of government and corporate interests colluding to suppress labor wages.
      - standardUser 2y ago
        They make 6 figures with great benefits and retire young. By exactly how much are air traffic controllers being underpaid by market standards?
        inferiorhuman 2y ago
        https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits Median pay is $127,805 and by law the salary is capped at $221,900. Training salary starts at under $67,000 in the Bay Area and is much lower elsewhere. They can't strike and are actively being outsourced. Look up the KSQL controller on youtube to see how well that's going.
        arrosenberg 2y ago
        They have an incredibly valuable and high stress job, and should be compensated appropriately. We don’t know their actual value, because as stated, they are not allowed to negotiate on even terms thanks to Ronald Reagan and the conservative anti-labor movement.
otterley 2y ago
And you can't even get hired -- by law -- if you're over 30 years old. It's absurd. The FAA is complaining that they don't have enough ATCs, but have done absolutely nothing to broaden the hiring pool. "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"
- tjohns 2y ago
  The 30 year maximum age for hiring is there to make sure controllers have enough time working to earn pension benefits before mandatory retirement. Hiring someone older would be setting them up for a very bad time later in life.
  - jjk166 2y ago
    If you can make an exception to the rules to force them to retire early, you can make an exception to the rules to let them earn pension benefits faster.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    > Hiring someone older would be setting them up for a very bad time later in life. If they spend 20 years there, and get 20 years worth of pension, what's the problem? They can combine it with whatever savings and pensions they had before being hired at 36. Unless you're saying they don't get any pension, in which case stop screwing people over that way and cut the pension qualification to 5 years or less.
  - photonbeam 2y ago
    Thats logic doesn't fly for any other profession
    - tjohns 2y ago
      It's because no other profession has the combination of (1) forcing people out of a highly trained role so young (with no options to reuse those skills in any other roles - forcing folks to go have to go back to square one and get a new professional education to move anywhere else), along with (2) the peculiarities of a government pension. Unless you overhaul the way government workers earn retirement, or we decide that it's safe to employ older air traffic controllers, any other choice would be highly exploitative.
shiroiushi 2y ago
Why on earth does anyone actually go into that career?
- duffyjp 2y ago
  Retiring at 56 with a pension sounds pretty good to me.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    From a somewhat low-paying job that has no transferable skills? How big is the pension? If it's not nearly as large as the person's prior paycheck, it doesn't sound like a good deal at all.

Air traffic controller here: we have a mandatory requirement age of 56.

arcanemachiner 2y ago

That's gotta be a pretty well-studied number.

otterley 2y ago
It isn't. Whether you're forced to retire should be calibrated to the individual's capabilities, not based on a statistical calculation.
- account42 2y ago
  Assessments of individuals can be gamed. Hard objective limits cannot.
  - otterley 2y ago
    It's really difficult to game timed and proctored aptitude tests. We've refined these systems pretty well over time. I can't imagine how anyone would game a test like, say, the LSAT unless they had the answers in advance or fraudulently substituted someone to take the test for them. And both cases are pretty easy to detect nowadays.

standardUser 2y ago

You have a really strong union.

buildsjets 2y ago
You are joking, right? You cannot seriously claim that NATCA is anything but a paper tiger if you knew anything about the history of ATC unionization in the USA. President Regan fired all 11,000 members of the actual strong ATC union, PATCO, and barred them from government jobs for life. NATCA never bothered to negotiate their rights back. Some REALLY strong union. https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike https://libraries.uta.edu/news-events/blog/1981-patco-strike
- standardUser 2y ago
  They collect pensions in their 50's. I'm not sure what metric you judge a union by, but most people look at things like pay and medical and when they collect pensions.
  - arrosenberg 2y ago
    > I'm not sure what metric you judge a union by Their ability to collectively bargain effectively. It doesn’t matter how good their current compensation is - they aren’t getting the fair market rate without the ability to bargain as a union. Its an example of government and corporate interests colluding to suppress labor wages.
    - standardUser 2y ago
      They make 6 figures with great benefits and retire young. By exactly how much are air traffic controllers being underpaid by market standards?
      - inferiorhuman 2y ago
        https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers https://www.faa.gov/jobs/career_fields/aviation_careers https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits https://www.faa.gov/jobs/working_here/benefits Median pay is $127,805 and by law the salary is capped at $221,900. Training salary starts at under $67,000 in the Bay Area and is much lower elsewhere. They can't strike and are actively being outsourced. Look up the KSQL controller on youtube to see how well that's going.
      - arrosenberg 2y ago
        They have an incredibly valuable and high stress job, and should be compensated appropriately. We don’t know their actual value, because as stated, they are not allowed to negotiate on even terms thanks to Ronald Reagan and the conservative anti-labor movement.

otterley 2y ago

And you can't even get hired -- by law -- if you're over 30 years old. It's absurd. The FAA is complaining that they don't have enough ATCs, but have done absolutely nothing to broaden the hiring pool. "We've tried nothing, and we're all out of ideas!"

tjohns 2y ago
The 30 year maximum age for hiring is there to make sure controllers have enough time working to earn pension benefits before mandatory retirement. Hiring someone older would be setting them up for a very bad time later in life.
- jjk166 2y ago
  If you can make an exception to the rules to force them to retire early, you can make an exception to the rules to let them earn pension benefits faster.
- Dylan16807 2y ago
  > Hiring someone older would be setting them up for a very bad time later in life. If they spend 20 years there, and get 20 years worth of pension, what's the problem? They can combine it with whatever savings and pensions they had before being hired at 36. Unless you're saying they don't get any pension, in which case stop screwing people over that way and cut the pension qualification to 5 years or less.
- photonbeam 2y ago
  Thats logic doesn't fly for any other profession
  - tjohns 2y ago
    It's because no other profession has the combination of (1) forcing people out of a highly trained role so young (with no options to reuse those skills in any other roles - forcing folks to go have to go back to square one and get a new professional education to move anywhere else), along with (2) the peculiarities of a government pension. Unless you overhaul the way government workers earn retirement, or we decide that it's safe to employ older air traffic controllers, any other choice would be highly exploitative.

shiroiushi 2y ago

Why on earth does anyone actually go into that career?

duffyjp 2y ago
Retiring at 56 with a pension sounds pretty good to me.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  From a somewhat low-paying job that has no transferable skills? How big is the pension? If it's not nearly as large as the person's prior paycheck, it doesn't sound like a good deal at all.