8 ms·

Relationships are coevolutionary loops (2023)

160 points by walterbell 2y ago

mijustin 2y ago
These were the crucial bits for me: > "Sundays are for listing everything that went wrong during the week on the blackboard we painted on the wall of my study, so we can figure out what needs to change." and > "I liked to think about our life as a piece of software. We had our routines and our principles, this was the code. We ran the code by living it. The list on the blackboard was the bug log, a record of the ways our routines broke down in contact with reality. We kept going through the code until our life did what we wanted it to do, more or less." Love the idea of bug log/dev cycle as a metaphor to use for improving relationships.
- skummetmaelk 2y ago
  Works as long as you don't think too deeply about why exactly you're doing that.
  - sulandor 2y ago
    as is with most thing
- keybored 2y ago
  There’s nothing more boring than someone who explains everything according to their passion-hobby or work. - Programmer: my life is a program - Marathoner: you know, life is like a great long race...
  - nonrandomstring 2y ago
    You know, writing a recursive descent parser is very much like making love to a beautiful woman... [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Toni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Toni
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    Not introspecting at all might be more boring. Besides, I enjoy a good metaphor like a pitbull enjoys mauling
    - keybored 2y ago
      > Not introspecting at all might be more boring. Because that’s the relevant takeaway.
  - isk517 2y ago
    As both a programmer and a marathoner my life is a program in which I'm constantly either in or preparing for a great long race. I wish this was a joke.
    - keybored 2y ago
      I wish that too.
- tetris11 2y ago
  My ex and I used to do this. Every month we'd plan out the next few months from dates/appointments, incorporating things we had to do, and things we wanted to do. And every month, we'd sift through the previous month, bump ahead tasks that were missed, discuss tasks that had been bumped repeatedly, and - most importantly - reflect on the last month's achievements together. As an aside, we would also every year make a printed photo album, sifting through all the photos we'd made that year. It was sometimes tough and gruelling work, but it really brought us together, and my eyes are wet just thinking of how we really grew together.
  - MezzoDelCammin 2y ago
    not to pry into Your privacy too much, but reading this kinda makes me wonder how come You're now exes. Without it the comment reads lie a piece of evidence for this iterative approach working out fairly well.
    - tetris11 2y ago
      I wonder too sometimes, there was a strong love between us. I thought that would be enough, but somehow it wasn't for me. Reading the article really helped highlight some failings: >The type of person I’m assuming we’re looking for here is 1) someone that you will find fascinating to talk to after you’ve talked for 20,000 hours, 2) you feel comfortable with them talking through the hardest and most painful decisions you will face in your life, and 3) the conversation is wildly generative for both of you, in that it brings you out, helps you become. With my Ex, we were great at (2), but (1) and (3) were lacking and we'd resort to friends and colleagues to get that feedback.
skmurphy 2y ago
I like the co-evolution framing but the listing of faults on the whiteboard reminded me of https://xkcd.com/523/ https://xkcd.com/523/
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  I think if you have enough problems to list them on a weekly basis, your relationship is probably in trouble I feel like healthy relationships don't have a rate of a problem or more per week
  - kranner 2y ago
    I like how the xkcd seems to frame it: seeking out problems to list can cause insignificant problems to seem significant. It's how "writer's mind" can be a problem in deepening a meditation practice.
    - azzentys 2y ago
      Curious: What does "writer's mind" mean with respect to deepening meditation practice?
      - kranner 2y ago
        The mind of someone who is seeking things to write about, thus setting up new forms of craving and ego-gratification, misunderstanding transient experiences and insights to be significant milestones or fitting them into concepts that are constrained by one's ability to express them in language.
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > I feel like healthy relationships don't have a rate of a problem or more per week Problems are much quicker and easier to resolve when they’re fresh and small than after you let them simmer into deep resentment. “Hey when you left that empty can on the coffee table on Friday, it made me feel like you don’t care about our shared space” vs “You always leave shit everywhere and I’m sick and tired of looking at your mess”
_gmax0 2y ago
Beautiful.
wizerno 2y ago
This is so important and underrated in life. > "This is what I infer when I see someone who is comfortable in their unique strangeness, too. There probably exists someone who enabled that evolution of personality. A parent, a friend group, a spouse. It is rare for people to come into themselves if no one is excited and curious about their core, their potential. We need someone who gives us space to unfold."
- vinnyvichy 2y ago
  [EDIT: might be relevant to AI safety https://eschwitz.substack.com/p/strange-intelligence-strange-philosophy https://eschwitz.substack.com/p/strange-intelligence-strange... > It might even, sometimes, strike us as remarkably, foolishly wrong. ] DOUBLE THIS! From time to time, some person I've just met would either assume I have no friends, OR wildly popular. Although both untrue, I never try to correct them, though it does kinda tickle me in a weird way. The truth is what you just said above (though it's more like a quasicommunity than a friend group -- the difference, I surmise, being that a quasicommunity still has potential for coevolution). I'm also guessing that if you integrate the opinions of strangers, it converges towards a correct label of strangeness.
- skummetmaelk 2y ago
  Humans are very good at pretending we are more than just biological machines acting according to genetically imposed network structure refined by lifetime history of training inputs.
  - hypertele-Xii 2y ago
    You might have existential imposter syndrome.
    - riehwvfbk 2y ago
      Your illusion of higher purpose is part of the very same evolutionary loop ;)
cen4 2y ago
Thanks to globalization people have more choice in the environments they live in and change environments with much more ease than in the past. While talking about relationships the focus naturally goes to individuals, it should be recognized that growth in relationships on top of ever changing environments gets much more tricky. Transport, Communication, Finance, Info networks have all changed drastically from the past. And the sociologists have been pointing that out for a long time now. Check out Zygmunt Bauman's Liquid Modernity. Beck's Normal Chaos of Love Works of Judith Stacey Its a complex ever changing world out there. Coevolution requires a bit of stablity in the environments. Focus should not just be on what individuals are doing for each other but on how they shape the environment around them in ways that makes such things more possible.
- squigz 2y ago
  I think globalization is on average a good thing (and probably the only way we survive long-term, but that's another discussion) - but indeed, we have lost some things in the transition, namely stable communities. For a long time, these were provided by our family, our local community, a church, etc. Now, we have much more freedom in our choices of communities (i.e., one might leave an abusive family) which is generally a good thing, but without replacing those communities, it's difficult to grow as a person. Not to mention the myriad other social problems that arise from this - a lack of community to care for the elderly, generations who don't know how to develop real relationships, and the loneliness that comes from that, etc...
thelibertines 2y ago
This was such a fun read! A sweet blend of poetry, anecdote, and Relational Ontology. Or maybe even Dialogical Philosophy?! The themes, such as "Two truths approach each other. One comes from inside, the other from outside" remind me greatly of other great reads: - Martin Buber's "I-Thou" relationship emphasizes genuine, reciprocal interactions, where the self becomes fully realized through mutual presence and connection with the other. See: I and Thou (1923) - Hegel's concept of recognition (Anerkennung) highlights that self-consciousness and identity are developed through a dialectical process of mutual acknowledgment between self and other. See: Phenomenology of Spirit (1807) Leaving this here for those interested in these concepts
greenhearth 2y ago
I'm sorry, but wtf? Doesn't coevolution imply two different species? Is coevolution an allegory to help understand relationship dynamics? We are butterflies trying to tongue the pollen out of the long lily stem of our partners?

160 points by walterbell 2y ago

These were the crucial bits for me: > "Sundays are for listing everything that went wrong during the week on the blackboard we painted on the wall of my study, so we can figure out what needs to change." and > "I liked to think about our life as a piece of software. We had our routines and our principles, this was the code. We ran the code by living it. The list on the blackboard was the bug log, a record of the ways our routines broke down in contact with reality. We kept going through the code until our life did what we wanted it to do, more or less." Love the idea of bug log/dev cycle as a metaphor to use for improving relationships.

skummetmaelk 2y ago
Works as long as you don't think too deeply about why exactly you're doing that.
- sulandor 2y ago
  as is with most thing
keybored 2y ago
There’s nothing more boring than someone who explains everything according to their passion-hobby or work. - Programmer: my life is a program - Marathoner: you know, life is like a great long race...
- nonrandomstring 2y ago
  You know, writing a recursive descent parser is very much like making love to a beautiful woman... [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Toni https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Toni
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  Not introspecting at all might be more boring. Besides, I enjoy a good metaphor like a pitbull enjoys mauling
  - keybored 2y ago
    > Not introspecting at all might be more boring. Because that’s the relevant takeaway.
- isk517 2y ago
  As both a programmer and a marathoner my life is a program in which I'm constantly either in or preparing for a great long race. I wish this was a joke.
  - keybored 2y ago
    I wish that too.
tetris11 2y ago
My ex and I used to do this. Every month we'd plan out the next few months from dates/appointments, incorporating things we had to do, and things we wanted to do. And every month, we'd sift through the previous month, bump ahead tasks that were missed, discuss tasks that had been bumped repeatedly, and - most importantly - reflect on the last month's achievements together. As an aside, we would also every year make a printed photo album, sifting through all the photos we'd made that year. It was sometimes tough and gruelling work, but it really brought us together, and my eyes are wet just thinking of how we really grew together.
- MezzoDelCammin 2y ago
  not to pry into Your privacy too much, but reading this kinda makes me wonder how come You're now exes. Without it the comment reads lie a piece of evidence for this iterative approach working out fairly well.
  - tetris11 2y ago
    I wonder too sometimes, there was a strong love between us. I thought that would be enough, but somehow it wasn't for me. Reading the article really helped highlight some failings: >The type of person I’m assuming we’re looking for here is 1) someone that you will find fascinating to talk to after you’ve talked for 20,000 hours, 2) you feel comfortable with them talking through the hardest and most painful decisions you will face in your life, and 3) the conversation is wildly generative for both of you, in that it brings you out, helps you become. With my Ex, we were great at (2), but (1) and (3) were lacking and we'd resort to friends and colleagues to get that feedback.

skmurphy 2y ago

I like the co-evolution framing but the listing of faults on the whiteboard reminded me of https://xkcd.com/523/ https://xkcd.com/523/

bluefirebrand 2y ago
I think if you have enough problems to list them on a weekly basis, your relationship is probably in trouble I feel like healthy relationships don't have a rate of a problem or more per week
- kranner 2y ago
  I like how the xkcd seems to frame it: seeking out problems to list can cause insignificant problems to seem significant. It's how "writer's mind" can be a problem in deepening a meditation practice.
  - azzentys 2y ago
    Curious: What does "writer's mind" mean with respect to deepening meditation practice?
    - kranner 2y ago
      The mind of someone who is seeking things to write about, thus setting up new forms of craving and ego-gratification, misunderstanding transient experiences and insights to be significant milestones or fitting them into concepts that are constrained by one's ability to express them in language.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > I feel like healthy relationships don't have a rate of a problem or more per week Problems are much quicker and easier to resolve when they’re fresh and small than after you let them simmer into deep resentment. “Hey when you left that empty can on the coffee table on Friday, it made me feel like you don’t care about our shared space” vs “You always leave shit everywhere and I’m sick and tired of looking at your mess”

_gmax0 2y ago

Beautiful.

wizerno 2y ago

This is so important and underrated in life. > "This is what I infer when I see someone who is comfortable in their unique strangeness, too. There probably exists someone who enabled that evolution of personality. A parent, a friend group, a spouse. It is rare for people to come into themselves if no one is excited and curious about their core, their potential. We need someone who gives us space to unfold."

vinnyvichy 2y ago
[EDIT: might be relevant to AI safety https://eschwitz.substack.com/p/strange-intelligence-strange-philosophy https://eschwitz.substack.com/p/strange-intelligence-strange... > It might even, sometimes, strike us as remarkably, foolishly wrong. ] DOUBLE THIS! From time to time, some person I've just met would either assume I have no friends, OR wildly popular. Although both untrue, I never try to correct them, though it does kinda tickle me in a weird way. The truth is what you just said above (though it's more like a quasicommunity than a friend group -- the difference, I surmise, being that a quasicommunity still has potential for coevolution). I'm also guessing that if you integrate the opinions of strangers, it converges towards a correct label of strangeness.
skummetmaelk 2y ago
Humans are very good at pretending we are more than just biological machines acting according to genetically imposed network structure refined by lifetime history of training inputs.
- hypertele-Xii 2y ago
  You might have existential imposter syndrome.
  - riehwvfbk 2y ago
    Your illusion of higher purpose is part of the very same evolutionary loop ;)

cen4 2y ago

Thanks to globalization people have more choice in the environments they live in and change environments with much more ease than in the past. While talking about relationships the focus naturally goes to individuals, it should be recognized that growth in relationships on top of ever changing environments gets much more tricky. Transport, Communication, Finance, Info networks have all changed drastically from the past. And the sociologists have been pointing that out for a long time now. Check out Zygmunt Bauman's Liquid Modernity. Beck's Normal Chaos of Love Works of Judith Stacey Its a complex ever changing world out there. Coevolution requires a bit of stablity in the environments. Focus should not just be on what individuals are doing for each other but on how they shape the environment around them in ways that makes such things more possible.

squigz 2y ago
I think globalization is on average a good thing (and probably the only way we survive long-term, but that's another discussion) - but indeed, we have lost some things in the transition, namely stable communities. For a long time, these were provided by our family, our local community, a church, etc. Now, we have much more freedom in our choices of communities (i.e., one might leave an abusive family) which is generally a good thing, but without replacing those communities, it's difficult to grow as a person. Not to mention the myriad other social problems that arise from this - a lack of community to care for the elderly, generations who don't know how to develop real relationships, and the loneliness that comes from that, etc...

thelibertines 2y ago

This was such a fun read! A sweet blend of poetry, anecdote, and Relational Ontology. Or maybe even Dialogical Philosophy?! The themes, such as "Two truths approach each other. One comes from inside, the other from outside" remind me greatly of other great reads: - Martin Buber's "I-Thou" relationship emphasizes genuine, reciprocal interactions, where the self becomes fully realized through mutual presence and connection with the other. See: I and Thou (1923) - Hegel's concept of recognition (Anerkennung) highlights that self-consciousness and identity are developed through a dialectical process of mutual acknowledgment between self and other. See: Phenomenology of Spirit (1807) Leaving this here for those interested in these concepts

greenhearth 2y ago

I'm sorry, but wtf? Doesn't coevolution imply two different species? Is coevolution an allegory to help understand relationship dynamics? We are butterflies trying to tongue the pollen out of the long lily stem of our partners?