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Speed kills, but slowness eats lives in another way. Which is worse, having a 1% chance of dying in a car accident, or spending an extra hour/day stuck in traf

Speed kills, but slowness eats lives in another way. Which is worse, having a 1% chance of dying in a car accident, or spending an extra hour/day stuck in traffic? I think I might take the first option; it delivers a higher expected number of hours of life not stuck in traffic.

Underphil 2y ago
I'm sure there's a fancy name for the fallacy you're presenting here but there are more than two choices. The third choice is stop building in such a way that these wide and fast roads are needed.
- dr_kiszonka 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
- hashmush 2y ago
  The fancy name is "false dichotomy", and you're completely right.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  That also has a cost. Needing to uproot your entire life and move everything around.
- maxerickson 2y ago
  It's not even a realistic representation of the commute choice. In the US, with a heavily car centric culture and ~stupid housing policy, we still have an average daily commute of about 55 minutes. Aren't gonna save an hour on that.
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  …by increasing the time to a destination and reducing access? By forcing people to live mandated lives in a 15 minute radius? By making everyone crowd into unsafe and dirty public transit? All of these and any other options you might name will hurt people’s lives as well. I can’t imagine an alternative that doesn’t confirm GP’s point.
nvy 2y ago
How selfish of you. Don't you care that you're more likely to kill somebody's kids as you fly down the road in your SUV, just to save some time on your commute?
- blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
  How selfish of you. Don’t you care that your demand for your smartphone could result in the death of a miner in Africa?
  - nvy 2y ago
    I'd happily buy phones with ethically-sourced components if it was possible. There is no choice available to me as far as I'm aware. Meanwhile just slowing the fuck down on residential streets is a choice anyone can make and not at all a comparable situation. Please dispense with the classic HN whataboutism, as it's not curious conversation and contravenes the comment guidelines.
oblio 2y ago
Sorry, but: carbrained. 1. If the US would have safer streets/roads/... and overall more human-oriented city design some people would walk to their destinations. Look at this stupidity, and this is a new community: https://youtu.be/9-QGLfWSrpQ?si=bsTbq0cdMltXEzU5&t=299 https://youtu.be/9-QGLfWSrpQ?si=bsTbq0cdMltXEzU5&t=299 Also some more people would bike to their destinations. Some people would take take public transit. And guess what, that means that in the end, fewer people drive so there's less traffic, and on empty streets going 30kmph on average, you get where you want faster than in stop and go or constantly merging traffic that has posted speed limits of 50 kmph. As people say, driving in the Netherlands is world class, and that's <<because>> the Netherlands has tons of cyclists, not <<despite>> them. 2. You know or should know that it's not about you dying in your car. These days cars are incredibly safe tanks for those inside. You're more likely to kill someone <<outside>> your car. 3. Other people have pointed out the logical fallacy, already.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  Everything in the Netherlands is world-class though. Some policies are feasible somewhere like NL but not in other places. People often say "this is why we can't have nice things"... Such policies are the "nice things".
  - ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
    It hasn't always been like that. There was a public campaign in the 1970s to try to prevent all the child deaths from car drivers - Stop de Kindermoord. There's not really any excuse for continuing to design purely for car drivers apart from that's what people have been led to believe. https://www.dutchreach.org/car-child-murder-protests-safer-nl-roads/ https://www.dutchreach.org/car-child-murder-protests-safer-n...
  - andrepd 2y ago
    The Netherlands was as car-supremacist a country as any other until the 70s. They fixed their stuff and now their bike infrastructure is excellent: people move to their destinations faster and safer and cheaper and cleaner than in everyone had to travel in an automobile.
oblio 2y ago
Also super shameful, probably because you're famous here, that your comment is <<upvoted>>.
HPsquared 2y ago
Indeed. You can do a utilitarian cost-benefit analysis using "quality-adjusted life years".
andrepd 2y ago
My, if only there were other worlds possible than "stuck in traffic for 2h" and "flying down a 14-lane road on a 4-ton child-killing machine"... But sadly it's impossible :'(
- pasc1878 2y ago
  For another world try Europe.

Underphil 2y ago

I'm sure there's a fancy name for the fallacy you're presenting here but there are more than two choices. The third choice is stop building in such a way that these wide and fast roads are needed.

dr_kiszonka 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
hashmush 2y ago
The fancy name is "false dichotomy", and you're completely right.
HPsquared 2y ago
That also has a cost. Needing to uproot your entire life and move everything around.
maxerickson 2y ago
It's not even a realistic representation of the commute choice. In the US, with a heavily car centric culture and ~stupid housing policy, we still have an average daily commute of about 55 minutes. Aren't gonna save an hour on that.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
…by increasing the time to a destination and reducing access? By forcing people to live mandated lives in a 15 minute radius? By making everyone crowd into unsafe and dirty public transit? All of these and any other options you might name will hurt people’s lives as well. I can’t imagine an alternative that doesn’t confirm GP’s point.

nvy 2y ago

How selfish of you. Don't you care that you're more likely to kill somebody's kids as you fly down the road in your SUV, just to save some time on your commute?

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
How selfish of you. Don’t you care that your demand for your smartphone could result in the death of a miner in Africa?
- nvy 2y ago
  I'd happily buy phones with ethically-sourced components if it was possible. There is no choice available to me as far as I'm aware. Meanwhile just slowing the fuck down on residential streets is a choice anyone can make and not at all a comparable situation. Please dispense with the classic HN whataboutism, as it's not curious conversation and contravenes the comment guidelines.

oblio 2y ago

Sorry, but: carbrained. 1. If the US would have safer streets/roads/... and overall more human-oriented city design some people would walk to their destinations. Look at this stupidity, and this is a new community: https://youtu.be/9-QGLfWSrpQ?si=bsTbq0cdMltXEzU5&t=299 https://youtu.be/9-QGLfWSrpQ?si=bsTbq0cdMltXEzU5&t=299 Also some more people would bike to their destinations. Some people would take take public transit. And guess what, that means that in the end, fewer people drive so there's less traffic, and on empty streets going 30kmph on average, you get where you want faster than in stop and go or constantly merging traffic that has posted speed limits of 50 kmph. As people say, driving in the Netherlands is world class, and that's <<because>> the Netherlands has tons of cyclists, not <<despite>> them. 2. You know or should know that it's not about you dying in your car. These days cars are incredibly safe tanks for those inside. You're more likely to kill someone <<outside>> your car. 3. Other people have pointed out the logical fallacy, already.

HPsquared 2y ago
Everything in the Netherlands is world-class though. Some policies are feasible somewhere like NL but not in other places. People often say "this is why we can't have nice things"... Such policies are the "nice things".
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  It hasn't always been like that. There was a public campaign in the 1970s to try to prevent all the child deaths from car drivers - Stop de Kindermoord. There's not really any excuse for continuing to design purely for car drivers apart from that's what people have been led to believe. https://www.dutchreach.org/car-child-murder-protests-safer-nl-roads/ https://www.dutchreach.org/car-child-murder-protests-safer-n...
- andrepd 2y ago
  The Netherlands was as car-supremacist a country as any other until the 70s. They fixed their stuff and now their bike infrastructure is excellent: people move to their destinations faster and safer and cheaper and cleaner than in everyone had to travel in an automobile.

oblio 2y ago

Also super shameful, probably because you're famous here, that your comment is <<upvoted>>.

HPsquared 2y ago

Indeed. You can do a utilitarian cost-benefit analysis using "quality-adjusted life years".

andrepd 2y ago

My, if only there were other worlds possible than "stuck in traffic for 2h" and "flying down a 14-lane road on a 4-ton child-killing machine"... But sadly it's impossible :'(

pasc1878 2y ago
For another world try Europe.