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Paying for the cost you caused society by being a criminal seems just as just as putting someone in prison to begin with. Obviously that means it should only a

Paying for the cost you caused society by being a criminal seems just as just as putting someone in prison to begin with. Obviously that means it should only apply to those guilty, not to anyone who has the charges overturned, and it also means the crimes need to be deserving of being crimes. I find it weird that people seem okay with the idea of imprisoning someone for X years, but fining them as well is going too far. Keeping the fined even after the conviction is overturned is an extra horrible case, comparable to keeping someone in prison even after the conviction is overturned, but that shouldn't be mixed with fines in general just like imprisoning someone after their conviction is overturned shouldn't be mixed with imprisoning someone who has a valid conviction.

qingcharles 2y ago
These fines cause people to reoffend to get the money to pay them, as often these fines and fees cause you to be reincarcerated if no payment is made. Even without reoffending, it stops people reintegrating successfully as it is very hard to get a job after incarceration and people end up having to take cash jobs for way below minimum wage and live in slums just to try to pay off these debts.
- SkyBelow 2y ago
  >These fines cause people to reoffend to get the money to pay them, Sending them to prison causes them to reoffend as shown by the recidivism rate of people based on how long they are in prison, as they learn to be better criminals while not learning skills to fit back into society, and as imprisonment creates a life changing stigma which negative impacts their lives. Perhaps instead of criticizing fines, you should criticize imprisonment and even the act of convicting them that creates the stigma that makes gainful legal employment so hard to find.
  - qingcharles 2y ago
    The primary skills you use locked up are how to be sneaky, how to hide shit, how to detect camera zones. You couldn't get cheese at one institution unless you had a court date; they would give you a cheese sandwich at court. I would smuggle coffee out of the jail (through a full naked visual body cavity search) to trade for cheese sandwiches in the court holding pens, and then smuggle the cheese slices back in (through another full naked visual body cavity search). Those are excellent life skills. Thanks jail!
notaustinpowers 2y ago
> Lose job and get charged with shoplifting for stealing baby formula. > Lose child to the system due to being found guilty. > Rack up $18,250 in bed fees for 1 year incarceration. > Lose ability to vote until $18,250 can be paid. > Can't get job because of previous conviction. > Become homeless. > Re-arrested for sleeping under a bridge on public property. > Rack up another $5,000 in bed fees for 100 day incarceration. > Rinse and repeat. Don't try to pull wool over my eyes that this is a just system. It's sole purpose is to disenfranchise voters even if they weren't charged with a federal crime.
- thegrim33 2y ago
  Well your very first step doesn't really make sense, given that the USDA, a federal organization funded with 150+ billion dollars a year, has 15 different nutrition assistance programs to provide food specifically "to ensure that children, low-income individuals, and families have opportunities for a better future through equitable access to safe, healthy, and nutritious food". Why commit crimes and steal food when the taxpayer will literally just give you free food or free money for food.
  - notaustinpowers 2y ago
    It may not make sense, but it happens. People may not know about those nutrition assistance programs. Their local programs may be backed up, can't see them soon enough, or provide them what their children need fast enough.
  - beedeebeedee 2y ago
    Your criticism is not as damning as you think. The original comment could have used an innumerable amount of other unfortunate circumstances to reach the same end. It is fortunate for you that you have never been in dire straits, been fired and had to feed a baby, or tried to enroll in a program like that in an emergency, and can instead sit back at a computer and google the USDA and their enrollment websites at your leisure. Many other people do not have your fortunate circumstances, which makes your comment seem tone deaf, out of touch, and in denial of the injustices in our justice system.
ljm 2y ago
These prisons are privately operated for-profit ventures and society does not benefit from the enrichment of the prison-industrial complex, and in fact it can be argued that it is a net loss to society because these businesses depend on a steady stream of offenders to incarcerate in order to survive, as well as repeat business from a high rate of recidivism. In order for the people running these businesses to maintain their wealth, they need a steady supply of criminals to shake down, and when they can't do that, they'll just lobby using sympathetic points like yours to say that they deserve to be landed with crippling debt. Of course, a society that dehumanises criminals, favours retribution over rehabilitation, and believes heavily in the 'free market', has simply opened the space for such a pipeline to exist. In the case of the wrongful conviction, it sounds like indentured servitude. You're not actually free until you've paid off your contract with Private Prison Inc.
- SkyBelow 2y ago
  >they'll just lobby using sympathetic points like yours I suggest you read my post again because your response doesn't seem to be related to my post. Your response is taking issue with private prisons and with businesses making money off prisons. My post was specific to people being okay with imprisoning someone, making no statement if it was in a private or public prison, but not being okay with fining someone. If you want to discuss how to make sure prisons aren't ran in such a way to ensure you don't have a pressure to increase prison usage, that is a fair discussion to have, but unrelated to the specific critique I was criticizing.

qingcharles 2y ago

These fines cause people to reoffend to get the money to pay them, as often these fines and fees cause you to be reincarcerated if no payment is made. Even without reoffending, it stops people reintegrating successfully as it is very hard to get a job after incarceration and people end up having to take cash jobs for way below minimum wage and live in slums just to try to pay off these debts.

SkyBelow 2y ago
>These fines cause people to reoffend to get the money to pay them, Sending them to prison causes them to reoffend as shown by the recidivism rate of people based on how long they are in prison, as they learn to be better criminals while not learning skills to fit back into society, and as imprisonment creates a life changing stigma which negative impacts their lives. Perhaps instead of criticizing fines, you should criticize imprisonment and even the act of convicting them that creates the stigma that makes gainful legal employment so hard to find.
- qingcharles 2y ago
  The primary skills you use locked up are how to be sneaky, how to hide shit, how to detect camera zones. You couldn't get cheese at one institution unless you had a court date; they would give you a cheese sandwich at court. I would smuggle coffee out of the jail (through a full naked visual body cavity search) to trade for cheese sandwiches in the court holding pens, and then smuggle the cheese slices back in (through another full naked visual body cavity search). Those are excellent life skills. Thanks jail!

notaustinpowers 2y ago

> Lose job and get charged with shoplifting for stealing baby formula. > Lose child to the system due to being found guilty. > Rack up $18,250 in bed fees for 1 year incarceration. > Lose ability to vote until $18,250 can be paid. > Can't get job because of previous conviction. > Become homeless. > Re-arrested for sleeping under a bridge on public property. > Rack up another $5,000 in bed fees for 100 day incarceration. > Rinse and repeat. Don't try to pull wool over my eyes that this is a just system. It's sole purpose is to disenfranchise voters even if they weren't charged with a federal crime.

thegrim33 2y ago
Well your very first step doesn't really make sense, given that the USDA, a federal organization funded with 150+ billion dollars a year, has 15 different nutrition assistance programs to provide food specifically "to ensure that children, low-income individuals, and families have opportunities for a better future through equitable access to safe, healthy, and nutritious food". Why commit crimes and steal food when the taxpayer will literally just give you free food or free money for food.
- notaustinpowers 2y ago
  It may not make sense, but it happens. People may not know about those nutrition assistance programs. Their local programs may be backed up, can't see them soon enough, or provide them what their children need fast enough.
- beedeebeedee 2y ago
  Your criticism is not as damning as you think. The original comment could have used an innumerable amount of other unfortunate circumstances to reach the same end. It is fortunate for you that you have never been in dire straits, been fired and had to feed a baby, or tried to enroll in a program like that in an emergency, and can instead sit back at a computer and google the USDA and their enrollment websites at your leisure. Many other people do not have your fortunate circumstances, which makes your comment seem tone deaf, out of touch, and in denial of the injustices in our justice system.

ljm 2y ago

These prisons are privately operated for-profit ventures and society does not benefit from the enrichment of the prison-industrial complex, and in fact it can be argued that it is a net loss to society because these businesses depend on a steady stream of offenders to incarcerate in order to survive, as well as repeat business from a high rate of recidivism. In order for the people running these businesses to maintain their wealth, they need a steady supply of criminals to shake down, and when they can't do that, they'll just lobby using sympathetic points like yours to say that they deserve to be landed with crippling debt. Of course, a society that dehumanises criminals, favours retribution over rehabilitation, and believes heavily in the 'free market', has simply opened the space for such a pipeline to exist. In the case of the wrongful conviction, it sounds like indentured servitude. You're not actually free until you've paid off your contract with Private Prison Inc.

SkyBelow 2y ago
>they'll just lobby using sympathetic points like yours I suggest you read my post again because your response doesn't seem to be related to my post. Your response is taking issue with private prisons and with businesses making money off prisons. My post was specific to people being okay with imprisoning someone, making no statement if it was in a private or public prison, but not being okay with fining someone. If you want to discuss how to make sure prisons aren't ran in such a way to ensure you don't have a pressure to increase prison usage, that is a fair discussion to have, but unrelated to the specific critique I was criticizing.