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At one point overnight airlines were calling for an "international ground stop for all flights globally". Planes in the air were unable to get clearance to lan

At one point overnight airlines were calling for an "international ground stop for all flights globally". Planes in the air were unable to get clearance to land or divert. I don't believe such a thing has ever happened before except in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

acomjean 2y ago
Flights have been delayed/canceled. Not as critical as the OP hospital, but not good. Effecting airlines/brodcasters and banks. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/19/business/global-tech-outage?unlocked_article_code=1.8U0.snej.23Wwd3Ej68kq&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/19/business/global-tech...
- DebtDeflation 2y ago
  If a plane is in the air, and can't get permission to land anywhere, well, they only have a finite amount of fuel onboard.
  - spectrumero 2y ago
    In the case of an emergency (which low fuel most definitely is) the captain has the ultimate authority and can tell ATC "I'm landing anyway".
    - langsoul-com 2y ago
      That might be fine for a single or a few planes. But given the magnitude of the outage, what if a single airport had dozens of planes landing anyway. There's a very good reason airport traffic control exists.
      - silisili 2y ago
        I'd be highly surprised if ATC systems were affected by this, but if anyone wants to correct me please do.
        TeMPOraL 2y ago
        I wouldn't expect emergency rooms and 911 to stop working either, but here we are, so until someone says otherwise, I'm assuming some ATCs went down too.
        swells34 2y ago
        I imagine the flight planning software they use was affected (so their ability to coordinate with other airport's ATC), but not their radio systems or aircraft radar (nearly all radar systems I've worked with are run on Linux, and are hardened to the Nth degree). Been out of the game for 12 years though, so things have likely changed.
      - School-Cotton 2y ago
        The Tenerife disaster (second-deadliest aviation incident in history, after 9/11) was ultimately caused by chaotic conditions due to too many airplanes having to be diverted and land at an alternate airport that wasn't equipped to handle them comfortably.
        Mavvie 2y ago
        I'd argue that Tenerife was due to taking off (in bad weather), not landing. But of course, a bunch of planes landing at the same airport without ATC sounds quite dangerous.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        There were a lot of contributing causes, but it wouldn't have happened if not for the fact that Tenerife North airport was massively overcrowded due to Gran Canaria airport being suddenly closed (for unrelated reasons) and flights forced to divert. The issue wasn't with landing specifically; I'm just using it as a general example of issues caused by havoc situations in aviation.
        xcv123 2y ago
        Also lack of visibility. The two pilots couldn't see each other through the fog.
      - qingcharles 2y ago
        Pilots know where there are other places to land, e.g. there are a lot of military strips and private airfields where some craft can land, depending on size.
  - throwoutway 2y ago
    A pilot WILL land, even without clearance. They're not going to crash their own plane. Either way, ATC has fallback procedures and can just use radio to communicate and manage everything manually. Get all the planes on the ground in safe order and then wait for a fix before clearing new takeoffs. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/43379/is-there-an-atc-radio-backup https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/43379/is-there-...
    - 0xffff2 2y ago
      Planes always get landing clearance via radio. "Planes in the air were unable to get clearance to land or divert" strongly suggests that the radios themselves were not working if it's actually true.
      - sunnybeetroot 2y ago
        And if they can’t get it via radio they are trained to get clearance via visual sight with someone on the ground.
  - SkyPuncher 2y ago
    Obviously, they're going to land planes before they run out of fuel.
    - windock 2y ago
      Or shortly after
  - DoingIsLearning 2y ago
    I would expect this to affect airlines services, e.g. for check-in and boarding. I would be very surprised if this outtage affects ATC systems.
  - jbb_hn 2y ago
    They would use those 4 magic words in aviation: "I'm declaring an emergency"
- shuntress 2y ago
  I would also point out that the backup plan (Radio and Binoculars) are not only effective but also extremely cheap & easy to keep ready in the control tower at all times. The same cannot be said for medical records.
jojobas 2y ago
Unbelievable these systems run on Windows.
- locococo 2y ago
  I feel Windows is wrongly blamed here it's just an OS. If you rely on your applications to be available you should have disaster recovery plans for scenarios like this.
  - darby_nine 2y ago
    Windows is also the platform where this sort of spyware has been normalized for decades as best practice.
    - remram 2y ago
      There are similar products for Linux. My organization runs Cortex XDR, it has a kernel module. Had a few calls with them to figure out its features and how it would impact the systems. They didn't even know.
      - darby_nine 2y ago
        Fair enough.
  - evilduck 2y ago
    Their disaster recovery plans include the same faults that brought them down this time, guaranteed.
  - mbreese 2y ago
    A little yes, a little no. Was this problem caused by Microsoft? No. Why does this tool exist and must be installed on servers? Well, Windows OS design definitely plays a role here. Why does this software run in a critical path that can cause the machine to BSOD? This is where the OS is a problem. If it is fragile enough that a bad service like this can cause it to crash in an unfixable state (without manual intervention), that’s on Windows.
1oooqooq 2y ago
the same time new showed up here, on wechat tiktok clone (moments i think, in English) was showing animations of the usa air traffic maps and how the tech blackout affected it. from those images i that it was huge.

acomjean 2y ago

Flights have been delayed/canceled. Not as critical as the OP hospital, but not good. Effecting airlines/brodcasters and banks. https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/19/business/global-tech-outage?unlocked_article_code=1.8U0.snej.23Wwd3Ej68kq&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/07/19/business/global-tech...

DebtDeflation 2y ago
If a plane is in the air, and can't get permission to land anywhere, well, they only have a finite amount of fuel onboard.
- spectrumero 2y ago
  In the case of an emergency (which low fuel most definitely is) the captain has the ultimate authority and can tell ATC "I'm landing anyway".
  - langsoul-com 2y ago
    That might be fine for a single or a few planes. But given the magnitude of the outage, what if a single airport had dozens of planes landing anyway. There's a very good reason airport traffic control exists.
    - silisili 2y ago
      I'd be highly surprised if ATC systems were affected by this, but if anyone wants to correct me please do.
      - TeMPOraL 2y ago
        I wouldn't expect emergency rooms and 911 to stop working either, but here we are, so until someone says otherwise, I'm assuming some ATCs went down too.
        swells34 2y ago
        I imagine the flight planning software they use was affected (so their ability to coordinate with other airport's ATC), but not their radio systems or aircraft radar (nearly all radar systems I've worked with are run on Linux, and are hardened to the Nth degree). Been out of the game for 12 years though, so things have likely changed.
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      The Tenerife disaster (second-deadliest aviation incident in history, after 9/11) was ultimately caused by chaotic conditions due to too many airplanes having to be diverted and land at an alternate airport that wasn't equipped to handle them comfortably.
      - Mavvie 2y ago
        I'd argue that Tenerife was due to taking off (in bad weather), not landing. But of course, a bunch of planes landing at the same airport without ATC sounds quite dangerous.
        School-Cotton 2y ago
        There were a lot of contributing causes, but it wouldn't have happened if not for the fact that Tenerife North airport was massively overcrowded due to Gran Canaria airport being suddenly closed (for unrelated reasons) and flights forced to divert. The issue wasn't with landing specifically; I'm just using it as a general example of issues caused by havoc situations in aviation.
      - xcv123 2y ago
        Also lack of visibility. The two pilots couldn't see each other through the fog.
    - qingcharles 2y ago
      Pilots know where there are other places to land, e.g. there are a lot of military strips and private airfields where some craft can land, depending on size.
- throwoutway 2y ago
  A pilot WILL land, even without clearance. They're not going to crash their own plane. Either way, ATC has fallback procedures and can just use radio to communicate and manage everything manually. Get all the planes on the ground in safe order and then wait for a fix before clearing new takeoffs. https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/43379/is-there-an-atc-radio-backup https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/43379/is-there-...
  - 0xffff2 2y ago
    Planes always get landing clearance via radio. "Planes in the air were unable to get clearance to land or divert" strongly suggests that the radios themselves were not working if it's actually true.
    - sunnybeetroot 2y ago
      And if they can’t get it via radio they are trained to get clearance via visual sight with someone on the ground.
- SkyPuncher 2y ago
  Obviously, they're going to land planes before they run out of fuel.
  - windock 2y ago
    Or shortly after
- DoingIsLearning 2y ago
  I would expect this to affect airlines services, e.g. for check-in and boarding. I would be very surprised if this outtage affects ATC systems.
- jbb_hn 2y ago
  They would use those 4 magic words in aviation: "I'm declaring an emergency"
shuntress 2y ago
I would also point out that the backup plan (Radio and Binoculars) are not only effective but also extremely cheap & easy to keep ready in the control tower at all times. The same cannot be said for medical records.

jojobas 2y ago

Unbelievable these systems run on Windows.

locococo 2y ago
I feel Windows is wrongly blamed here it's just an OS. If you rely on your applications to be available you should have disaster recovery plans for scenarios like this.
- darby_nine 2y ago
  Windows is also the platform where this sort of spyware has been normalized for decades as best practice.
  - remram 2y ago
    There are similar products for Linux. My organization runs Cortex XDR, it has a kernel module. Had a few calls with them to figure out its features and how it would impact the systems. They didn't even know.
    - darby_nine 2y ago
      Fair enough.
- evilduck 2y ago
  Their disaster recovery plans include the same faults that brought them down this time, guaranteed.
- mbreese 2y ago
  A little yes, a little no. Was this problem caused by Microsoft? No. Why does this tool exist and must be installed on servers? Well, Windows OS design definitely plays a role here. Why does this software run in a critical path that can cause the machine to BSOD? This is where the OS is a problem. If it is fragile enough that a bad service like this can cause it to crash in an unfixable state (without manual intervention), that’s on Windows.

1oooqooq 2y ago

the same time new showed up here, on wechat tiktok clone (moments i think, in English) was showing animations of the usa air traffic maps and how the tech blackout affected it. from those images i that it was huge.