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An Open Letter To All Startup Founders

73 points by kathrynhough 14y ago

fein 14y ago
I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that definitely needs to be avoided, but (what seems to be) the core issue for this article seems to be a non issue. We don't really have any context for the Hooters-ish photo, so I can't make any concrete deductions, but it seems as though an all male startup team decided to go willingly, and most likely unanimously to the wild wings and boobs eatery. If they had female counterparts that felt as though they did not belong then there could be a problem. Again, we don't have much context. I can understand the sentiment regarding the "unprofessional" nature of the given photo, but I highly doubt that their employee outing is going to be the cause of burned bridges and lawsuits.
- marquis 14y ago
  >I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated It does. As long as professional companies allow outings to locations that marginalises/objectifies others it's a problem with respect and how it reflects on the industry.
- hythloday 14y ago
  "Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" but you find that an all-male publicizing going to a "breasturant" for a team outing is a "non-issue"? Do you genuinely not see any contradiction in those viewpoints?
  - fein 14y ago
    If the decision to go was unanimous then how is this a problem? They went to a restaurant that advertises the objectifying of women, with employees (of the eatery) that are totally OK with it as well. Now, if one of those employees decided to voice resistance to the idea and they carried on despite this, we would have a problem. I don't see a problem with the author's specific instance, nor would I have a problem with an all female/ voluntary crew heading out to man hooters and throwing it up all over the intertubes.
    - hythloday 14y ago
      It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Fewer organizations that welcome women mean a less attractive industry for women, which is the polar opposite of avoiding gender inequality. Pretty much any time you're discussing inequality, if you reach for "it would be OK if the situations were reversed", you are choosing to ignore the substance of the problem, which is that 99.9% of the time the situations are not reversed.
      - mindcrime 14y ago
        It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Is it really, though? If so, why? Men who enjoy going to Hooters are not necessarily crude, aggressive louts who treat women poorly. And a company that has lunch at Hooters is hardly a place where women are automatically unwelcome, or treated as inferior. In fact, I see very little connection her at all. As a man, I find that appreciating beautiful women and celebrating sexuality are completely orthogonal to my desire to treat women as respected peers and colleagues in the workplace and to treat women with respect based on factors other than their physical appearance.
        hythloday 14y ago
        Even the post I replied to admitted that it would be a problem if there was a woman in the company who objected. If you assume that women are more likely to object to going there than men, and that men in the company enjoy going there, it's obvious that a woman would be less welcome to join the company than a man. I think you're seeking to interpret "unwelcome" as implying deliberate slights or cold shoulders, which isn't what I was getting at - I mean that the company culture would have to change more to accommodate a woman than a man, and that this would be obvious to the woman.
      - prodigal_erik 14y ago
        Unwelcome? I've never understood this. The stereotype is that attractive people got hired by being attractive (or maybe for putting out) rather than being competent, but I have trouble believing anyone has never met any coworkers who were both. I've had my share of crushes on sharp people I've worked with; it's my responsibility not to let it be an issue, and so I don't.
- zopa 14y ago
  You've got it backwards: this is the context. It probably wouldn't trigger a lawsuit on its own; it's the reason you'd lose that lawsuit, or have to settle on very unfavorable terms. Look at the cases the OP mentioned. Each one has a concrete injury (getting passed over for a promotion, etc.), plus evidence suggesting that gender discrimination was the reason for the injury. Now imagine that a well-qualified women applied for a job with this startup, and was passed over. Given the breastaurant photo, it would look very plausible that the applicant wasn't hired because the founders hire people they like, and they like guys they can see themselves hanging out with at places like this.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- prodigal_erik 14y ago
  If your team has a documented history of this sort of thoughtcrime, any woman with a grudge and a lawyer can use that to fry you. Whatever you think of the ethics, it's blatantly self-destructive behavior within the US system of employment law.
tptacek 14y ago
I've worked at companies that used strip clubs as part of their sales process. I won't again if I can help it. I'd avoid working at a company that posted a photo like this, too.
- rdl 14y ago
  The photographic evidence is far worse than the act, at least from a practical perspective. If a customer really wants to go to a strip club, it might be worth it to go, but you don't want to 1) establish a reputation for doing business in strip clubs or 2) have random people later associate your company with strip clubs.
  - tptacek 14y ago
    I disagree about the cost/benefit of selling using strip clubs. When you concede to taking customers to strip clubs, you in effect declare your sales team to be a male-only operation. Fuck that. Not worth it.
    - rdl 14y ago
      That's a valid concern. (I don't think I've yet met a female salesperson or even sales engineer in enterprise tech, security, or networking, but being on the leading edge of change there would be desirable.)
Paul_S 14y ago
Do you think it's OK to go to such places outside of a company organized event? Would it be OK if the employees went there on their own?
- esperluette 14y ago
  Barely Ok: a subgroup of employees organizes it on their personal time (meaning: not using work email to send an "all@" message, or using work email at all). It's not discussed in the office, and no important work topics are discussed at the event. (So the people who didn't go don't hear "oh yeah we discussed that at Hooter's and decided ...") Not OK: even if the event is independently organized, pictures posted on company site or circulated via company email; tweets or social-media postings about the event including the company name (including "at Hooter's with my buds from Company X!") all send the wrong message. If you and your dudes from work HAVE to go to one of these places (keep telling yourself it's "ironic"), you should treat it like buying ointment for an embarrassing disease. Something you do quietly at weird hours hoping nobody you know sees you.
  - jimboyoungblood 14y ago
    Aside from Hooters, what are other examples of "these places" that should be avoided? Our startup's engineering staff is all male- any advice that will keep us out of such embarrassing situations is appreciated.
    - nsxwolf 14y ago
      No strip clubs and porn shops obviously, but that's apparently not far enough. No place that hires attractive women or even hints at human sexuality as being a positive thing, apparently.
      - m0nastic 14y ago
        Naturally, the point of trying to promote a professional, inclusive workplace is really a scheme to reinforce sexual shame on a mass scale. How about places that just don't objectify a group of people?
m0nastic 14y ago
I had a client who used to call me up and ask me to come up and meet them for a "very important meeting", wherein I'd arrive and they'd go to a strip club. They did this several times, and I was never particularly comfortable with it. They were the opposite of a startup, but at the time I worked for a small company (who didn't want to risk alienating them). My salesperson (who was a woman) was very adamant that I attend these meetings, as they were an important customer. After my company got acquired, the new, enormous company that I worked for rather sensibly freaked the hell out about those sorts of things (one of the few benefits to working at a large company). And as an aside, I'm incredibly disappointed to learn that "Twin Peaks" isn't a restaurant themed after the TV show. I'd totally hang out in that place.
- pkamb 14y ago
  You actually can hang out at the Twin Peaks cafe in North Bend, Washington: http://www.twedescafe.com/ http://www.twedescafe.com/ Unfortunately it's been gutted and the current owners have no sense of nostalgia nor style. Wish I could re-design the place. Angelo Badalamenti on the stereo, Red Room bathrooms, pie display case... the possibilities for a nice campy tribute to Twin Peaks are endless.
- bornhuetter 14y ago
  This is the first time I've heard of it. I was expecting something along the lines of cherry pie at the "Double R Diner". On topic though, it boggles the mind that staff would go to strip clubs as a work social activity, but it does happen. I used to work with some characters that got in trouble for it.
rafalG 14y ago
One of the big reasons I love the hacker culture is the lack of sexism, if you are good you are good, doesn't matter what sex, race or religion. The only thing true hackers care about is your level of skill and dedication.
- m0nastic 14y ago
  I really wish that were true, but it's not what I've observed in general. Granted, the "hacker culture" I'm most familiar with is the "security-type" of hacker (as opposed to developers/makers), but its culture is rife with every kind of 'ism imaginable (sex, race, what have you). I suppose there's some solace in the fact that at least the discrimination isn't exclusionary.
  - fibertbh 14y ago
    Agreed. Also look up "sexual harassment at conferences" for a handful of recent examples.
mindcrime 14y ago
Weirdly, I both care tremendously about gender equality, and also think this is much ado about nothing. I guess the issue is my libertine nature, and refusal to assume that anything with sexual overtones is innately hostile, offensive, insulting, etc. One of the co-founders at Fogbeam Labs is a woman, so this is not empty rhetoric on my part. I respect women tremendously, and would not have invited this woman to join the team if I didn't have tremendous respect for her technical chops, intelligence, etc. But I don't buy into this PC crap of assuming that taking the team to Hooters for lunch is somehow equivalent to sexual harassment or "creating a hostile work environment." Now, I'll grant that in some cases there may be a correlation between a team that chooses to eat at Hooters (or strip clubs or whatever) and a team that is made up of guys who only see women as sexual objects, and who might be prone to acting in uncool ways. But I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater... deal with these things on a case-by-case basis, focusing on the specifics, instead of making wild generalizations, IMO. Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men. And please don't take any of this as excusing examples like the ones cited in the article, where a male co-worker physically assaulted a female co-worker; or cases where repeated sexual overtures are made after the initiator has been asked to stop, etc. Sex is good, sexual harassment is bad. Let's just not assume that the two are equivalent, or that one should never mix business and pleasure.
- tptacek 14y ago
  You said, Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men. The simple fact is professional women don't feel this way. Due to power dynamics, due to gender differences, due to concern over personal safety, due to a general feeling of alienation because of being minority, and due to probably 100 other reasons I'm not insightful enough to cite, professional women as a general rule do not want to celebrate sexuality in the workplace. So my reply to you is get over it already. Every time one of these threads comes up, some geek has to make the rest of us geeks look bad by pointing out, as if it was somehow interesting, that "men like women and women like men". People do all sorts of things that we don't allow in the workplace. Some of them are bad, some of them are totally innocuous, and that ambiguity is why we came up with the word "INAPPROPRIATE".
planetguy 14y ago
The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really. Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks. Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses there, or extremely religious men, would feel uncomfortable there. Thirdly, this isn't the only kind of company outing that can make people feel uncomfortable. Going to a steak-only restaurant can make vegetarians uncomfortable; on the other hand going to a vegetarian restaurant will make the omnivores uncomfortable. Anyway, the point of the story is to organize your company outings, if you must have them, at someplace everyone will enjoy. Which, as far as advice goes, falls into the category "bloody obvious". No need to stick your genitals into it.
- mindcrime 14y ago
  Well said. The issue is being considerate to people in general. Anyway, the point of the story is to organize your company outings, if you must have them, at someplace everyone will enjoy. Do you mean on a case-by-case basis though? IOW, if you had a group where everyone was happy going to Hooters, would you do it, or are you saying that one should always stick to the "safe" choice? If the latter, I wouldn't really agree, as that seems very limiting and likely to lead to a bland experience.
  - planetguy 14y ago
    Well personally, I wouldn't want to go to Hooters with my workmates anyway... it seems like a form of unwanted intimacy. I prefer to think of my workmates as machines that consume dollars and produce work; seeing them leering at women would force me to think of them as people, and that's just getting dangerously close to blending personal and professional relationships. (I'm exaggerating above, of course, but the thought of going to Hooters or similar with my workmates or especially with my boss fills me with a feeling of ick. Boundaries, people, boundaries.) But in answer to your question, if some other people at a company I don't work for all want to go to Hooters (or the male-stripper equivalent) together then I'm not gonna sit around and disapprove of that. Or, closer to home, my workmates and I all do eat steak [I assume] so if we go to a steak restaurant we need not worry about the hypothetical vegetarian who might be our next employee.
nsxwolf 14y ago
This seems prudish. This is a restaurant, not a strip club. There is no nudity. They have national TV ads. If you go in, you'll find families with children. You can find that questionable if you want to, but clearly many people don't mind bringing their children there. Most restaurants hire a lot of female servers. Most have very nice looking women. This is not a coincidence. Most have them wear clothes that in some way accentuates their sexuality, even if it's just nice form fitting attire that shows no skin. They're not given burquas. Why do good liberal folk rail against the supposed repressed sexuality of the United States, holding up European countries as some kind of enlightened ideal, and as soon as a woman decides to empower herself by working wherever she pleases, including a place that shows her midriff, we all suddenly prude out and talk about lawsuits?
- gyardley 14y ago
  Even 'good liberal folk' talk about lawsuits in these situations, no matter what their views on sexuality, because lawsuits do result from this sort of thing and they prefer to avoid getting sued. Even 'good liberal folk' don't hold work events at establishments that might bother us unenlightened troglodyte prudes, because we still make up a decent chunk of the talent pool, and finding good employees is hard enough without alienating large swaths of them through easily avoidable things. 'Good liberal folk' in quotes, of course, because ogling someone who's so empowered she has to wear a skimpy uniform to keep her crappy minimum wage job doesn't strike me as particularly good or liberal.
doubleconfess 14y ago
This is probably as much a function of age inequality as much as gender inequality, to be honest. Get a bunch of 21-25 year old men together for long periods of time, and shenanigans of a crass and sexist and possibly misogynistic nature will ensue. All men have been there, most men outgrow it.
discolemonade 14y ago
"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" Why is gender inequality a problem that needs to be avoided? The economy needs tech startups. What difference does it make that the vast majority are started by men? It would be equally good if most tech startups were started by women, but they aren't. Who cares? The "gender inequality is bad" meme seems to be an unquestioned default that most people hold in their heads. The first thing people will always assume is that any uneven statistical distribution of people in a profession will be due to discrimination. But that's usually not the case. Usually, it comes down to a far simpler explanation. There are significant average motivational differences between men and women when it comes to math and the hard sciences that will always ensure a gender imbalance in engineering-related fields. Statistically, it has little to do with ability (except at very elite levels). Far fewer women than men enjoy thinking about and discussing technology. It's a simple fact of the world that's easily observed in the ever day conversations that men and women choose to have. And it will forever ensure a statistical gender imbalance in tech. Most women aren't interested in technology and women (and men) who are in technology, who keep pushing for this fictional perfect male/female balance would do well to show a bit of respect to the majority of the female population that chooses to be interested in other things that females are typically more oriented towards.
- tptacek 14y ago
  These threads sure do bring out the best in HN, don't they?
  - angelbob 14y ago
    Alas. They're not as bad as they were at first. That's something. I'm still embarrassed to be a member of HN when these threads roll around. Thank you, by the way - you generally do an excellent job of being a voice of reason here.
wildmXranat 14y ago
There's only one right message in this article: linking your company brand to Hooters might be detrimental to your bottom line< no pun intended > Now that that's out of the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong about doing this. In fact, her complaint exhibits the lack of respect for freedom of choice and expression one can take advantage of, without paying a price in the public court of opinion. It boils down to this: she was offended, she should avoid the company. Instead she's publicly trying to gang up on them, where it actually might cause them to lose some coin. Live and let live.
- angelbob 14y ago
  No, it really doesn't boil down to that. Silicon Valley Startup culture does currently create a hostile attitude for a lot of female founders and potential female employees. NYC is handing us our ass on female founders and employees, partly because they come closer to getting this right. Perhaps we should consider learning something here?
rpwilcox 14y ago
I would think that investors (and/or shareholders) would be very interested in their investments not having their runway dissolved by some discrimination lawsuit. So are investors just not watching? I would think that one call or email from one of your VCs where they condone That Sort Of Thing would be enough to scramble the PR machine and never do something like that again. But it seems that every month (at least) we see some startup doing something dumb like this. Are VCs just not watching what their investments are doing?
m0nastic 14y ago
By the way, an easier way to potentially avoid situations like this (for those wondering what is/isn't appropriate in a work environment but are having trouble conceptualizing what's "appropriate" in a work context): Just don't go to shitty lunch places (like Hooters). I can't think of any place that's objectionable in this context that's actually a decent place to go.
deedubaya 14y ago
Don't get me wrong, I don't think that a work environment shouldn't be difficult for one person, and easy for another based on a discriminating factor, but let's be realistic people! There are going to be situations in life where you'll be uncomfortable. It might be because of your values, gender, faith, or race. It will happen. It will happen to the person standing next to you at some point. How about we all grow up and move past these points, and build cool stuff? I don't care if it is done in a Hooters or a Bed, Bath, and Beyond.
cristianocd 14y ago
Lame... so lame. Maybe her boyfriend was in that picture and that's what this post is all about. I bet everyone is smiling in that pic.
- pinchyfingers 14y ago
  Yea, I'm glad that there are so many comments here calling b.s. on this article, I was about to pack it up and head to WickedFire.
- kathrynhough 14y ago
  Nope, I'm happily married, we live 2,000 miles away from the incident, and I won't disclose the name of the company involved. I have no ties to anyone involved. I have no interest in hurting anyone from any company by bringing this up. I just wanted to start a discussion.
  - cristianocd 14y ago
    Your article was so emotional and biased, just thought it looked like your view on this was to "strict" for the startup world. Everything is more spontaneous and loose. I think they would respect anyone in their group who didn't think it was nice to go to that place, as I think you should respect their choice. You just went 100% for it and I thought it was a bad choice. I work with 2 guys and a girl and all of them are open minded to know what is and what is not going on. It's the startup world: you can choose not only who works with you, but what works with you too.
    - kathrynhough 14y ago
      I've worked for a startup for two years, btw.
      - cristianocd 14y ago
        Nice. I've worked for a couple too. Now I'm a 9-year-company CEO (16 months), startup co-founder (1 year) and consultant for a startup (4 months). Good look on your startup, I understand your goal to be respectful, but don't be too strict... after all, you hate rules.
jordo37 14y ago
When I first read this post I thought "Great! A story on cases of less explicit forms of gender-discrimination told in a way that makes business and economic sense. Seems like a good argument to have in my backpocket as someone who cares about gender issues." Then, out of further curiosity I checked the conversation on HN. Gender issues are not like making someone feel uncomfortable for their eating habits, or their consumption of alcohol. Your eating habits, especially in Silicon Valley, are not something that systemically keep you back from achieving success. Gender and implicit sexism do. Perhaps as a man, respecting women for their brains and their bodies feels "orthogonal" to you, but I doubt it does to most of the women you work with. Ask them, but in a way where they can really respond. More than anything that's the important idea here. Being a woman in technology is different than being a man. If you are a man and have opinions about this and have not sought out the opinions of the women you work with in a genuine way, in an environment where they can be honest, then you don't know what you are talking about. I've asked and it's always surprised and dissapointed me. Maybe from now on we should use IANAW to talk about gender issues as men, because honestly, its are stacked in our favor. Only by understanding the other side can we understand what the problems with gender issues look like.
rsanchez1 14y ago
They're probably all "brogrammers".
djt 14y ago
Wow these articles really show how far the hacker community is oblivious to the effects of this kind of thing on their work. The whole point is that startups are leaving themselves up to litigation and even worse (from the company perspective) is that they will find it hard to attract female programmers and potentially female customers. I work in a male-dominated field and we're one of the few companies that employ females as skilled labour, some of the feedback i received from a 360 degree review was that some of the women felt excluded by some of the conversations that some of the male crew were having. I cant even imagine how going to a place like this for a work gathering would make them feel.
jimboyoungblood 14y ago
Some interesting back and forth between the OP and the founder of the startup in question: https://twitter.com/kathrynhough/status/212368001494818816 https://twitter.com/kathrynhough/status/212368001494818816

73 points by kathrynhough 14y ago

fein 14y ago

I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated, as I think that we all know what qualifies as an HR nightmare. Gender inequality is a problem that definitely needs to be avoided, but (what seems to be) the core issue for this article seems to be a non issue. We don't really have any context for the Hooters-ish photo, so I can't make any concrete deductions, but it seems as though an all male startup team decided to go willingly, and most likely unanimously to the wild wings and boobs eatery. If they had female counterparts that felt as though they did not belong then there could be a problem. Again, we don't have much context. I can understand the sentiment regarding the "unprofessional" nature of the given photo, but I highly doubt that their employee outing is going to be the cause of burned bridges and lawsuits.

marquis 14y ago
>I'm not really sure that the point needed to be restated It does. As long as professional companies allow outings to locations that marginalises/objectifies others it's a problem with respect and how it reflects on the industry.
hythloday 14y ago
"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" but you find that an all-male publicizing going to a "breasturant" for a team outing is a "non-issue"? Do you genuinely not see any contradiction in those viewpoints?
- fein 14y ago
  If the decision to go was unanimous then how is this a problem? They went to a restaurant that advertises the objectifying of women, with employees (of the eatery) that are totally OK with it as well. Now, if one of those employees decided to voice resistance to the idea and they carried on despite this, we would have a problem. I don't see a problem with the author's specific instance, nor would I have a problem with an all female/ voluntary crew heading out to man hooters and throwing it up all over the intertubes.
  - hythloday 14y ago
    It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Fewer organizations that welcome women mean a less attractive industry for women, which is the polar opposite of avoiding gender inequality. Pretty much any time you're discussing inequality, if you reach for "it would be OK if the situations were reversed", you are choosing to ignore the substance of the problem, which is that 99.9% of the time the situations are not reversed.
    - mindcrime 14y ago
      It is a problem because it is an explicit sign to women thinking of applying to that company that they would not be welcome in the organization. Is it really, though? If so, why? Men who enjoy going to Hooters are not necessarily crude, aggressive louts who treat women poorly. And a company that has lunch at Hooters is hardly a place where women are automatically unwelcome, or treated as inferior. In fact, I see very little connection her at all. As a man, I find that appreciating beautiful women and celebrating sexuality are completely orthogonal to my desire to treat women as respected peers and colleagues in the workplace and to treat women with respect based on factors other than their physical appearance.
      - hythloday 14y ago
        Even the post I replied to admitted that it would be a problem if there was a woman in the company who objected. If you assume that women are more likely to object to going there than men, and that men in the company enjoy going there, it's obvious that a woman would be less welcome to join the company than a man. I think you're seeking to interpret "unwelcome" as implying deliberate slights or cold shoulders, which isn't what I was getting at - I mean that the company culture would have to change more to accommodate a woman than a man, and that this would be obvious to the woman.
    - prodigal_erik 14y ago
      Unwelcome? I've never understood this. The stereotype is that attractive people got hired by being attractive (or maybe for putting out) rather than being competent, but I have trouble believing anyone has never met any coworkers who were both. I've had my share of crushes on sharp people I've worked with; it's my responsibility not to let it be an issue, and so I don't.
zopa 14y ago
You've got it backwards: this is the context. It probably wouldn't trigger a lawsuit on its own; it's the reason you'd lose that lawsuit, or have to settle on very unfavorable terms. Look at the cases the OP mentioned. Each one has a concrete injury (getting passed over for a promotion, etc.), plus evidence suggesting that gender discrimination was the reason for the injury. Now imagine that a well-qualified women applied for a job with this startup, and was passed over. Given the breastaurant photo, it would look very plausible that the applicant wasn't hired because the founders hire people they like, and they like guys they can see themselves hanging out with at places like this.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
prodigal_erik 14y ago
If your team has a documented history of this sort of thoughtcrime, any woman with a grudge and a lawyer can use that to fry you. Whatever you think of the ethics, it's blatantly self-destructive behavior within the US system of employment law.

tptacek 14y ago

I've worked at companies that used strip clubs as part of their sales process. I won't again if I can help it. I'd avoid working at a company that posted a photo like this, too.

rdl 14y ago
The photographic evidence is far worse than the act, at least from a practical perspective. If a customer really wants to go to a strip club, it might be worth it to go, but you don't want to 1) establish a reputation for doing business in strip clubs or 2) have random people later associate your company with strip clubs.
- tptacek 14y ago
  I disagree about the cost/benefit of selling using strip clubs. When you concede to taking customers to strip clubs, you in effect declare your sales team to be a male-only operation. Fuck that. Not worth it.
  - rdl 14y ago
    That's a valid concern. (I don't think I've yet met a female salesperson or even sales engineer in enterprise tech, security, or networking, but being on the leading edge of change there would be desirable.)

Paul_S 14y ago

Do you think it's OK to go to such places outside of a company organized event? Would it be OK if the employees went there on their own?

esperluette 14y ago
Barely Ok: a subgroup of employees organizes it on their personal time (meaning: not using work email to send an "all@" message, or using work email at all). It's not discussed in the office, and no important work topics are discussed at the event. (So the people who didn't go don't hear "oh yeah we discussed that at Hooter's and decided ...") Not OK: even if the event is independently organized, pictures posted on company site or circulated via company email; tweets or social-media postings about the event including the company name (including "at Hooter's with my buds from Company X!") all send the wrong message. If you and your dudes from work HAVE to go to one of these places (keep telling yourself it's "ironic"), you should treat it like buying ointment for an embarrassing disease. Something you do quietly at weird hours hoping nobody you know sees you.
- jimboyoungblood 14y ago
  Aside from Hooters, what are other examples of "these places" that should be avoided? Our startup's engineering staff is all male- any advice that will keep us out of such embarrassing situations is appreciated.
  - nsxwolf 14y ago
    No strip clubs and porn shops obviously, but that's apparently not far enough. No place that hires attractive women or even hints at human sexuality as being a positive thing, apparently.
    - m0nastic 14y ago
      Naturally, the point of trying to promote a professional, inclusive workplace is really a scheme to reinforce sexual shame on a mass scale. How about places that just don't objectify a group of people?

m0nastic 14y ago

I had a client who used to call me up and ask me to come up and meet them for a "very important meeting", wherein I'd arrive and they'd go to a strip club. They did this several times, and I was never particularly comfortable with it. They were the opposite of a startup, but at the time I worked for a small company (who didn't want to risk alienating them). My salesperson (who was a woman) was very adamant that I attend these meetings, as they were an important customer. After my company got acquired, the new, enormous company that I worked for rather sensibly freaked the hell out about those sorts of things (one of the few benefits to working at a large company). And as an aside, I'm incredibly disappointed to learn that "Twin Peaks" isn't a restaurant themed after the TV show. I'd totally hang out in that place.

pkamb 14y ago
You actually can hang out at the Twin Peaks cafe in North Bend, Washington: http://www.twedescafe.com/ http://www.twedescafe.com/ Unfortunately it's been gutted and the current owners have no sense of nostalgia nor style. Wish I could re-design the place. Angelo Badalamenti on the stereo, Red Room bathrooms, pie display case... the possibilities for a nice campy tribute to Twin Peaks are endless.
bornhuetter 14y ago
This is the first time I've heard of it. I was expecting something along the lines of cherry pie at the "Double R Diner". On topic though, it boggles the mind that staff would go to strip clubs as a work social activity, but it does happen. I used to work with some characters that got in trouble for it.

rafalG 14y ago

One of the big reasons I love the hacker culture is the lack of sexism, if you are good you are good, doesn't matter what sex, race or religion. The only thing true hackers care about is your level of skill and dedication.

m0nastic 14y ago
I really wish that were true, but it's not what I've observed in general. Granted, the "hacker culture" I'm most familiar with is the "security-type" of hacker (as opposed to developers/makers), but its culture is rife with every kind of 'ism imaginable (sex, race, what have you). I suppose there's some solace in the fact that at least the discrimination isn't exclusionary.
- fibertbh 14y ago
  Agreed. Also look up "sexual harassment at conferences" for a handful of recent examples.

mindcrime 14y ago

Weirdly, I both care tremendously about gender equality, and also think this is much ado about nothing. I guess the issue is my libertine nature, and refusal to assume that anything with sexual overtones is innately hostile, offensive, insulting, etc. One of the co-founders at Fogbeam Labs is a woman, so this is not empty rhetoric on my part. I respect women tremendously, and would not have invited this woman to join the team if I didn't have tremendous respect for her technical chops, intelligence, etc. But I don't buy into this PC crap of assuming that taking the team to Hooters for lunch is somehow equivalent to sexual harassment or "creating a hostile work environment." Now, I'll grant that in some cases there may be a correlation between a team that chooses to eat at Hooters (or strip clubs or whatever) and a team that is made up of guys who only see women as sexual objects, and who might be prone to acting in uncool ways. But I don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bathwater... deal with these things on a case-by-case basis, focusing on the specifics, instead of making wild generalizations, IMO. Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men. And please don't take any of this as excusing examples like the ones cited in the article, where a male co-worker physically assaulted a female co-worker; or cases where repeated sexual overtures are made after the initiator has been asked to stop, etc. Sex is good, sexual harassment is bad. Let's just not assume that the two are equivalent, or that one should never mix business and pleasure.

tptacek 14y ago
You said, Anyway, I believe in celebrating human sexuality and wish that more people (male and female) could quit being so damn defensive about the fact that men like women and women like men. The simple fact is professional women don't feel this way. Due to power dynamics, due to gender differences, due to concern over personal safety, due to a general feeling of alienation because of being minority, and due to probably 100 other reasons I'm not insightful enough to cite, professional women as a general rule do not want to celebrate sexuality in the workplace. So my reply to you is get over it already. Every time one of these threads comes up, some geek has to make the rest of us geeks look bad by pointing out, as if it was somehow interesting, that "men like women and women like men". People do all sorts of things that we don't allow in the workplace. Some of them are bad, some of them are totally innocuous, and that ambiguity is why we came up with the word "INAPPROPRIATE".

planetguy 14y ago

The issue doesn't have much to do with gender, really. Firstly, one need not be male in order to be happy going to a place like Twin Peaks. The only time I've been to Hooters, I was dragged there by a bunch of chicks. Secondly, one need not be female in order to be unhappy going to a place like Twin Peaks. Older, more respectable-looking men, men with daughters who would be round about the right age to be waitresses there, or extremely religious men, would feel uncomfortable there. Thirdly, this isn't the only kind of company outing that can make people feel uncomfortable. Going to a steak-only restaurant can make vegetarians uncomfortable; on the other hand going to a vegetarian restaurant will make the omnivores uncomfortable. Anyway, the point of the story is to organize your company outings, if you must have them, at someplace everyone will enjoy. Which, as far as advice goes, falls into the category "bloody obvious". No need to stick your genitals into it.

mindcrime 14y ago
Well said. The issue is being considerate to people in general. Anyway, the point of the story is to organize your company outings, if you must have them, at someplace everyone will enjoy. Do you mean on a case-by-case basis though? IOW, if you had a group where everyone was happy going to Hooters, would you do it, or are you saying that one should always stick to the "safe" choice? If the latter, I wouldn't really agree, as that seems very limiting and likely to lead to a bland experience.
- planetguy 14y ago
  Well personally, I wouldn't want to go to Hooters with my workmates anyway... it seems like a form of unwanted intimacy. I prefer to think of my workmates as machines that consume dollars and produce work; seeing them leering at women would force me to think of them as people, and that's just getting dangerously close to blending personal and professional relationships. (I'm exaggerating above, of course, but the thought of going to Hooters or similar with my workmates or especially with my boss fills me with a feeling of ick. Boundaries, people, boundaries.) But in answer to your question, if some other people at a company I don't work for all want to go to Hooters (or the male-stripper equivalent) together then I'm not gonna sit around and disapprove of that. Or, closer to home, my workmates and I all do eat steak [I assume] so if we go to a steak restaurant we need not worry about the hypothetical vegetarian who might be our next employee.

nsxwolf 14y ago

This seems prudish. This is a restaurant, not a strip club. There is no nudity. They have national TV ads. If you go in, you'll find families with children. You can find that questionable if you want to, but clearly many people don't mind bringing their children there. Most restaurants hire a lot of female servers. Most have very nice looking women. This is not a coincidence. Most have them wear clothes that in some way accentuates their sexuality, even if it's just nice form fitting attire that shows no skin. They're not given burquas. Why do good liberal folk rail against the supposed repressed sexuality of the United States, holding up European countries as some kind of enlightened ideal, and as soon as a woman decides to empower herself by working wherever she pleases, including a place that shows her midriff, we all suddenly prude out and talk about lawsuits?

gyardley 14y ago
Even 'good liberal folk' talk about lawsuits in these situations, no matter what their views on sexuality, because lawsuits do result from this sort of thing and they prefer to avoid getting sued. Even 'good liberal folk' don't hold work events at establishments that might bother us unenlightened troglodyte prudes, because we still make up a decent chunk of the talent pool, and finding good employees is hard enough without alienating large swaths of them through easily avoidable things. 'Good liberal folk' in quotes, of course, because ogling someone who's so empowered she has to wear a skimpy uniform to keep her crappy minimum wage job doesn't strike me as particularly good or liberal.

doubleconfess 14y ago

This is probably as much a function of age inequality as much as gender inequality, to be honest. Get a bunch of 21-25 year old men together for long periods of time, and shenanigans of a crass and sexist and possibly misogynistic nature will ensue. All men have been there, most men outgrow it.

discolemonade 14y ago

"Gender inequality is a problem that needs to be avoided" Why is gender inequality a problem that needs to be avoided? The economy needs tech startups. What difference does it make that the vast majority are started by men? It would be equally good if most tech startups were started by women, but they aren't. Who cares? The "gender inequality is bad" meme seems to be an unquestioned default that most people hold in their heads. The first thing people will always assume is that any uneven statistical distribution of people in a profession will be due to discrimination. But that's usually not the case. Usually, it comes down to a far simpler explanation. There are significant average motivational differences between men and women when it comes to math and the hard sciences that will always ensure a gender imbalance in engineering-related fields. Statistically, it has little to do with ability (except at very elite levels). Far fewer women than men enjoy thinking about and discussing technology. It's a simple fact of the world that's easily observed in the ever day conversations that men and women choose to have. And it will forever ensure a statistical gender imbalance in tech. Most women aren't interested in technology and women (and men) who are in technology, who keep pushing for this fictional perfect male/female balance would do well to show a bit of respect to the majority of the female population that chooses to be interested in other things that females are typically more oriented towards.

tptacek 14y ago
These threads sure do bring out the best in HN, don't they?
- angelbob 14y ago
  Alas. They're not as bad as they were at first. That's something. I'm still embarrassed to be a member of HN when these threads roll around. Thank you, by the way - you generally do an excellent job of being a voice of reason here.

wildmXranat 14y ago

There's only one right message in this article: linking your company brand to Hooters might be detrimental to your bottom line< no pun intended > Now that that's out of the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong about doing this. In fact, her complaint exhibits the lack of respect for freedom of choice and expression one can take advantage of, without paying a price in the public court of opinion. It boils down to this: she was offended, she should avoid the company. Instead she's publicly trying to gang up on them, where it actually might cause them to lose some coin. Live and let live.

angelbob 14y ago
No, it really doesn't boil down to that. Silicon Valley Startup culture does currently create a hostile attitude for a lot of female founders and potential female employees. NYC is handing us our ass on female founders and employees, partly because they come closer to getting this right. Perhaps we should consider learning something here?

rpwilcox 14y ago

I would think that investors (and/or shareholders) would be very interested in their investments not having their runway dissolved by some discrimination lawsuit. So are investors just not watching? I would think that one call or email from one of your VCs where they condone That Sort Of Thing would be enough to scramble the PR machine and never do something like that again. But it seems that every month (at least) we see some startup doing something dumb like this. Are VCs just not watching what their investments are doing?

m0nastic 14y ago

By the way, an easier way to potentially avoid situations like this (for those wondering what is/isn't appropriate in a work environment but are having trouble conceptualizing what's "appropriate" in a work context): Just don't go to shitty lunch places (like Hooters). I can't think of any place that's objectionable in this context that's actually a decent place to go.

deedubaya 14y ago

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that a work environment shouldn't be difficult for one person, and easy for another based on a discriminating factor, but let's be realistic people! There are going to be situations in life where you'll be uncomfortable. It might be because of your values, gender, faith, or race. It will happen. It will happen to the person standing next to you at some point. How about we all grow up and move past these points, and build cool stuff? I don't care if it is done in a Hooters or a Bed, Bath, and Beyond.

cristianocd 14y ago

Lame... so lame. Maybe her boyfriend was in that picture and that's what this post is all about. I bet everyone is smiling in that pic.

pinchyfingers 14y ago
Yea, I'm glad that there are so many comments here calling b.s. on this article, I was about to pack it up and head to WickedFire.
kathrynhough 14y ago
Nope, I'm happily married, we live 2,000 miles away from the incident, and I won't disclose the name of the company involved. I have no ties to anyone involved. I have no interest in hurting anyone from any company by bringing this up. I just wanted to start a discussion.
- cristianocd 14y ago
  Your article was so emotional and biased, just thought it looked like your view on this was to "strict" for the startup world. Everything is more spontaneous and loose. I think they would respect anyone in their group who didn't think it was nice to go to that place, as I think you should respect their choice. You just went 100% for it and I thought it was a bad choice. I work with 2 guys and a girl and all of them are open minded to know what is and what is not going on. It's the startup world: you can choose not only who works with you, but what works with you too.
  - kathrynhough 14y ago
    I've worked for a startup for two years, btw.
    - cristianocd 14y ago
      Nice. I've worked for a couple too. Now I'm a 9-year-company CEO (16 months), startup co-founder (1 year) and consultant for a startup (4 months). Good look on your startup, I understand your goal to be respectful, but don't be too strict... after all, you hate rules.

jordo37 14y ago

When I first read this post I thought "Great! A story on cases of less explicit forms of gender-discrimination told in a way that makes business and economic sense. Seems like a good argument to have in my backpocket as someone who cares about gender issues." Then, out of further curiosity I checked the conversation on HN. Gender issues are not like making someone feel uncomfortable for their eating habits, or their consumption of alcohol. Your eating habits, especially in Silicon Valley, are not something that systemically keep you back from achieving success. Gender and implicit sexism do. Perhaps as a man, respecting women for their brains and their bodies feels "orthogonal" to you, but I doubt it does to most of the women you work with. Ask them, but in a way where they can really respond. More than anything that's the important idea here. Being a woman in technology is different than being a man. If you are a man and have opinions about this and have not sought out the opinions of the women you work with in a genuine way, in an environment where they can be honest, then you don't know what you are talking about. I've asked and it's always surprised and dissapointed me. Maybe from now on we should use IANAW to talk about gender issues as men, because honestly, its are stacked in our favor. Only by understanding the other side can we understand what the problems with gender issues look like.

rsanchez1 14y ago

They're probably all "brogrammers".

djt 14y ago

Wow these articles really show how far the hacker community is oblivious to the effects of this kind of thing on their work. The whole point is that startups are leaving themselves up to litigation and even worse (from the company perspective) is that they will find it hard to attract female programmers and potentially female customers. I work in a male-dominated field and we're one of the few companies that employ females as skilled labour, some of the feedback i received from a 360 degree review was that some of the women felt excluded by some of the conversations that some of the male crew were having. I cant even imagine how going to a place like this for a work gathering would make them feel.

jimboyoungblood 14y ago

Some interesting back and forth between the OP and the founder of the startup in question: https://twitter.com/kathrynhough/status/212368001494818816 https://twitter.com/kathrynhough/status/212368001494818816