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> I feel certain they’ll say humans suck and every animal knows it. I don't know. Growing up with cattle, they regularly stood free, but then always waited aro

> I feel certain they’ll say humans suck and every animal knows it. I don't know. Growing up with cattle, they regularly stood free, but then always waited around to let them back into their "concrete cells". They had every chance to escape, but never wanted to. They clearly preferred being there. Same goes for the farm dogs and cats. In fact, the cat population "mysteriously" kept growing without a corresponding number of kittens (in other words, foreign cats would voluntarily find their way into those "concrete cells"). It very well may have been a case of Stockholm syndrome, but regardless of the exact mechanics it is doubtful that they know that to be the case.

grecy 2y ago
They've been bred for that for hundreds of generations. Go find a wild bison and see how it behaves. I've chased herds of wild bison on many occasions - they are NOT like domestic cows. Same story for mountain lions and lynx, etc. They are a far cry from cats. Having our tiny falling down cabin surrounded by wolves in the Yukon at -44 degrees makes you appreciate how far THOSE are from house dogs.
- randomdata 2y ago
  > They've been bred for that for hundreds of generations. What is significant about this specific mechanism that makes it noteworthy enough to violate what was already established?
  - freejazz 2y ago
    Are you genuinely asking this question because you can't fathom how?
    - fastball 2y ago
      I'm genuinely interested in the distinction. Humans "breeding" animals is the same as any other environmental factor that affects evolution of a species.
      - freejazz 2y ago
        I'm sorry, are you saying something like french bulldogs would have evolved just the same without human intervention? It seems like you are reforming the idea in a really obtuse manner in order to paper over the obvious distinction.
        randomdata 2y ago
        Where do you dream this stuff up? What continues to be asked is of what relevance the topic of breeding is to the subject at hand. Nobody is surprised that selective breeding is a thing, denies that it happens, or pretends that it hasn't shaped the animals. What nobody seems to want to answer is why it was brought to the discussion, especially when it was already, and explicitly, established that the exact mechanism for the animal's behaviour is irrelevant to said discussion. No doubt it was posted for good reason, but so far nobody has been able to figure out what that reason is. To the rest of us laymen, an environmental factor is an environmental factor is an environmental factor. What makes breeding so different that it justifies violating the discussion that was taking place?
        freejazz 2y ago
        >What nobody seems to want to answer is why it was brought to the discussion, especially when it was already, and explicitly, established that the exact mechanism for the animal's behaviour is irrelevant to said discussion. Who said that? As far as I can tell the discussion was the difference between domesticated cows and bison, and I didn't see anyone say breeding is irrelevant except you. > What makes breeding so different that it justifies violating the discussion that was taking place? What exactly are you talking about? You are being obtusely vague >Where do you dream this stuff up? No need to be rude, it's not helping anything. You are being rude to the other poster too, when it's your fault for not communicating clearly and just insisting everyone made the same assumptions as you when it's clear they didn't. Rather than make things clear, you just keep insulting people on top of things.
        randomdata 2y ago
    - randomdata 2y ago
      I genuinely ask what is noteworthy about breeding that separates it from any other mechanism with respect to the topic at hand. There is no indication in the comment of how breeding actually violates the unnecessariness of the exact mechanics. I suspect it was posted without having read the thread that came before it, but we shall see when clarification is revealed, if the original commenter ever follows up.
      - grecy 2y ago
        I've read your comment above and the one above that multiple times. I still don't understand what you are asking. If you don't understand that breeding something for a certain trait will impact that animal, I suggest you go look at pugs or dash-hounds and the medical problems they now have as a result of very specific breeding.
        randomdata 2y ago
        It was established that the exact mechanics don't matter. But then you introduced an exact mechanic. This means that there must be something incredibly interesting or noteworthy about said mechanic to violate the notion that the exact mechanics don't matter. But you have not yet shared what is notable about it. Breeding for a certain trait is farming 101. There is absolutely nothing interesting about that. So what have we missed?
        grecy 2y ago
        I am still not following you at all. I honestly feel like either you or I are replying to the wrong comment chain. > It was established that the exact mechanics don't matter Please show me what was established and where. I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. > But then you introduced an exact mechanic Again, please show what I introduced and where. >This means that there must be something incredibly interesting or noteworthy about said mechanic to violate the notion that the exact mechanics don't matter Ahhh, really lost now. > But you have not yet shared what is notable about it. Notable about what? Either one of us is staggeringly confused, or I'm having this conversation with an AI in training.
- frabert 2y ago
  > Same story for mountain lions and lynx, etc. They are a far cry from cats. Have domestic cats actually been selectively bred from those bigger cats? I thought they were preexisting hunter animals that just decided they liked living with us better than living in the wild
  - RoyalHenOil 2y ago
    Domestic cats came from African wildcats. It was only a subset of African wildcats that developed a commensal relationship with humans. The wildcats that are not domesticated have very different social behavior and do not seek out humanity (nor live in social group like feral domestic cats do, etc.). Basically, we are seeing speculation: two populations launching into different evolutionary trajectories.
RoyalHenOil 2y ago
Many animals fare better in captivity, including some wild animals. Elephants are an exception; wild elephants have longer lifespans than captive elephants. I see no reason why elephants would seek out confinement when it seemingly harms their health and therefore presumably makes them feel worse.

grecy 2y ago

They've been bred for that for hundreds of generations. Go find a wild bison and see how it behaves. I've chased herds of wild bison on many occasions - they are NOT like domestic cows. Same story for mountain lions and lynx, etc. They are a far cry from cats. Having our tiny falling down cabin surrounded by wolves in the Yukon at -44 degrees makes you appreciate how far THOSE are from house dogs.

randomdata 2y ago
> They've been bred for that for hundreds of generations. What is significant about this specific mechanism that makes it noteworthy enough to violate what was already established?
- freejazz 2y ago
  Are you genuinely asking this question because you can't fathom how?
  - fastball 2y ago
    I'm genuinely interested in the distinction. Humans "breeding" animals is the same as any other environmental factor that affects evolution of a species.
    - freejazz 2y ago
      I'm sorry, are you saying something like french bulldogs would have evolved just the same without human intervention? It seems like you are reforming the idea in a really obtuse manner in order to paper over the obvious distinction.
      - randomdata 2y ago
        Where do you dream this stuff up? What continues to be asked is of what relevance the topic of breeding is to the subject at hand. Nobody is surprised that selective breeding is a thing, denies that it happens, or pretends that it hasn't shaped the animals. What nobody seems to want to answer is why it was brought to the discussion, especially when it was already, and explicitly, established that the exact mechanism for the animal's behaviour is irrelevant to said discussion. No doubt it was posted for good reason, but so far nobody has been able to figure out what that reason is. To the rest of us laymen, an environmental factor is an environmental factor is an environmental factor. What makes breeding so different that it justifies violating the discussion that was taking place?
        freejazz 2y ago
        >What nobody seems to want to answer is why it was brought to the discussion, especially when it was already, and explicitly, established that the exact mechanism for the animal's behaviour is irrelevant to said discussion. Who said that? As far as I can tell the discussion was the difference between domesticated cows and bison, and I didn't see anyone say breeding is irrelevant except you. > What makes breeding so different that it justifies violating the discussion that was taking place? What exactly are you talking about? You are being obtusely vague >Where do you dream this stuff up? No need to be rude, it's not helping anything. You are being rude to the other poster too, when it's your fault for not communicating clearly and just insisting everyone made the same assumptions as you when it's clear they didn't. Rather than make things clear, you just keep insulting people on top of things.
        randomdata 2y ago
  - randomdata 2y ago
    I genuinely ask what is noteworthy about breeding that separates it from any other mechanism with respect to the topic at hand. There is no indication in the comment of how breeding actually violates the unnecessariness of the exact mechanics. I suspect it was posted without having read the thread that came before it, but we shall see when clarification is revealed, if the original commenter ever follows up.
    - grecy 2y ago
      I've read your comment above and the one above that multiple times. I still don't understand what you are asking. If you don't understand that breeding something for a certain trait will impact that animal, I suggest you go look at pugs or dash-hounds and the medical problems they now have as a result of very specific breeding.
      - randomdata 2y ago
        It was established that the exact mechanics don't matter. But then you introduced an exact mechanic. This means that there must be something incredibly interesting or noteworthy about said mechanic to violate the notion that the exact mechanics don't matter. But you have not yet shared what is notable about it. Breeding for a certain trait is farming 101. There is absolutely nothing interesting about that. So what have we missed?
        grecy 2y ago
        I am still not following you at all. I honestly feel like either you or I are replying to the wrong comment chain. > It was established that the exact mechanics don't matter Please show me what was established and where. I genuinely don't know what you are talking about. > But then you introduced an exact mechanic Again, please show what I introduced and where. >This means that there must be something incredibly interesting or noteworthy about said mechanic to violate the notion that the exact mechanics don't matter Ahhh, really lost now. > But you have not yet shared what is notable about it. Notable about what? Either one of us is staggeringly confused, or I'm having this conversation with an AI in training.
frabert 2y ago
> Same story for mountain lions and lynx, etc. They are a far cry from cats. Have domestic cats actually been selectively bred from those bigger cats? I thought they were preexisting hunter animals that just decided they liked living with us better than living in the wild
- RoyalHenOil 2y ago
  Domestic cats came from African wildcats. It was only a subset of African wildcats that developed a commensal relationship with humans. The wildcats that are not domesticated have very different social behavior and do not seek out humanity (nor live in social group like feral domestic cats do, etc.). Basically, we are seeing speculation: two populations launching into different evolutionary trajectories.

RoyalHenOil 2y ago

Many animals fare better in captivity, including some wild animals. Elephants are an exception; wild elephants have longer lifespans than captive elephants. I see no reason why elephants would seek out confinement when it seemingly harms their health and therefore presumably makes them feel worse.