7 ms·

just make it conditional: 21 hours of study and/or social work/field work per week. - high school style tests, milestones and road maps to test study progress,

just make it conditional: 21 hours of study and/or social work/field work per week. - high school style tests, milestones and road maps to test study progress, good for citizen science but can be any subject, fugees start easy with the ABC - social work including agriculture & farms, where the first year or two can count towards apprenticeship if combined with studies solves low wages short-, mid-, long-term, increases buying power, creates jobs and tons of admin, org, bureaucracy work for those who dig it :) make it enough to afford rent and healthy food and some culture per week. in Germany, that would be 1350 - 1500 per month, which is covered already, but the conditions are nonsense and lax.

criddell 2y ago
What problem are you trying to solve with those conditions?
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  - increase of brain power - smarter future voters - increasing participation in productive and constructive society - more voices and more discussion - eliminating the bias and discrimination against people who receive basic income - eliminating small scale opportunities to lazycheat - eliminate the continued rise of the currently too easily abused right leaning parts of the population - ... it will take time, of course
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
VHRanger 2y ago
Conditional social benefits are always a nightmare in practice. Look at the rules to qualify for that high school style test or prove that you actually achieve the milestone. Assume they will be implemented by the most incompetent of bureaucrats (eg. months to get an appointment, buggy Oracle software). Assume they will be implemented by the most nightmarish of your political opponents. Look for instance on rules for identification for voters in the southern USA. In theory that makes sense! In practice it's cynically implemented to systematically prevent certain demographics from voting. The main advantage of UBI in practice is that it's no questions asked. Anything else about it can be replicated by fiddling with tax and welfare bracket numbers.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  I agree, but a proper model and structure can be created. And voting for the right people won't be done if the voters aren't properly involved in increasing brain power and participating in social work/life.
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic-jobs-against-hijacking-utopia/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic... As long as it's not busy work I guess. I won't be surprised if those rules are poorly enforced though I'd be okay with just giving people money, even if it's less than cost of living, since that will push some people back from the edge. It may be used as an excuse to stay in dying rural towns and vote against my freedom but hell that happens anyway...
- euroderf 2y ago
  > As long as it's not busy work I guess Even digging holes in the ground and filling them up again is exercise. So... for people who are overweight and out of shape (as measured by standardized fitness tests executed under the gaze of a well-trained A.I.), also require (say) two half-hour exercise sessions (also under the gaze of a well-trained A.I.).
  - footy 2y ago
    this is why humanities matter
  - tempfile 2y ago
    I am begging you to say psych (or sike).
    - euroderf 2y ago
      Okay okay. Let's stick to digging ditches and filling them up again. WithOUT robotic assistance. Some sort of character-building exercise that keeps the Protestant Work Ethic -itarians happy.
      - tempfile 2y ago
        what? I was referring to this part: >as measured by standardized fitness tests executed under the gaze of a well-trained A.I.
spywaregorilla 2y ago
Ok great. So every single minimum wage worker quits their job and decides to study for three hours per day for an hourly wage of over 2x the previous minimum. Sounds to me like you've just created a massive labor shortage. What's next?
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  i doubt that min wage workers will all quit, the extra money is what they need to live properly
  - spywaregorilla 2y ago
    Right now workers do those jobs, because if they don't, they will die or become destitute. If you change their incentive to be they can work an unpleasant job while rent and food is guaranteed, you're going to find that the marginal value of that 12 euros an hour has plummeted. It's not worth it to work a terrible minimum wage job if your basic needs are satisfied
    - ziggyzecat 2y ago
      it's still not enough to raise children, for example, or buy a car, or get more culture. you need that extra money and it will be easier doing that shitty job if you get enough time for variety and your bank account statement doesn't raise your stress levels.
- jakelazaroff 2y ago
  The same thing as any other labor shortage? Employers offer more money, and people who want that money apply for those jobs?
  - tempfile 2y ago
    How is society supposed to function without an underclass of poor and unhealthy wage slaves?
thrance 2y ago
That is a very bad idea, implementing this would result in a massive state apparatus that would be insanely expensive to run and most inefficient. People down on their luck would have to go through months of tribulations to prove they have the right to not starve, losing time not actually trying to climb out of their hole. Also the point of UBI is that it is unconditional (The U stands for Univeral). It is supposed to be a simpler, fairer welfare system that allows everyone to focus on improving their lives instead of trying to survive.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  the state apparatus dealing with unemployment is already massive and it's resources can be reallocated. with hundreds of millions of refugees and immigrants from zones that will get fried by climate change, you really have no chance if you don't increase the efforts, capacity and variety of approaches of all state institutions.
DJBunnies 2y ago
Not exactly universal as such.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  rebrand it then
rob74 2y ago
Maybe you should read the definition of Universal Basic Income first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income - although it's actually already contained in the name. The proposal is to have less or no bureaucratic hurdles before being able to receive it, and here you are proposing even more bureaucracy...
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  I know. The point is that for the biggest part of people receiving money without conditions, does not result in a favorable outcome for society, themselves and only a moderately good outcome for the economy
  - pif 2y ago
    > does not result in a favorable outcome for society That's your respectable opinion, but the truth is: we don't know! You may be right, you may be wrong, but this is the crux of the discussion and you cannot swipe it off by stating an opinion as a fact.
    - ziggyzecat 2y ago
      Agreed. Thnks for pointing that out. I still didn't get around studying all those fallacies and how to argue logically. I should learn about one per day and find an example when the fallacy becomes a non-fallacy. But isn't it a measurable factor? ... people get free stuff, people don't question their benefactor, people agree to rely on him, people become dependent beyond the extent of constructive codependence
torlok 2y ago
This sounds like an absolute nightmare to implement. The point of UBI is to have a safety net so that you can spread your wings and pursue passion projects and ventures. It's not supposed to be a ball and chain you bear so that you can eat while tech billionaires do everything they can to price you out of the job market. Not everybody has daddy's money to spend while they work on their startup.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  your passion projects become paid studies and the implementation can be your social / civic / field work. it's still a guaranteed safety net, except with a growing level of accountability. not everybody has passion projects, not everybody who had youth when he couldn't handle it, has money or peace of mind to go back to school, and a UBI won't hold you accountable. some people need to learn/ relearn how to take responsibility for themselves and a low end job where they learn the retarded rules of the hoarder-capitalist "we-run-on-magic-math-money" economy obviously isn't constructive or productive. if it was, the right / alt right wouldn't grow their follower base. but yes, the implementation will need a huge bunch of devs and admin people who are technical, capable and, "under different circumstances, wouldn't work for so much less money than they earned during their previous employments"
newsclues 2y ago
I’m going to study fascism instead of working.
- ziggyzecat 2y ago
  you'll learn how it's just a tool for inferior men to abuse people in order to compensate for a very specific but acquirable lack of adaptivity to the real world, a growing world population and eventual colonization of space
  - newsclues 2y ago
    So like communism?
    - ziggyzecat 2y ago
      nope. communism is when people do what must be done while criticizing each other for fun ... you know, like people who don't feel the need to pseudo-dominate. people rarely get to see communism in action. what you know as communism is some early access pre-alpha where half the code is duck tape polished with spit. there is a convention to ignore that communism never organized. it wouldn't have anyway. too many corrupt humans. it's too bad humans didn't learn in time about emotional and cognitive exploits, sabotage of bias and fallacies and pseudo-dominance. only because of that did so many good men die in pointless wars. 'member how the smartest scientist & engineers were all for communism back in the day? that's because they understood machines and wanted to build for eternity. then the magic-money guys, who always lose against honest competition, came around and established their pseudo-dominant financial hierarchies and threatened and scared people and now we have planned obsolescence, "the right to repair", influencers and make-up that will make you look mid-chemo 70 before you are 40. hoarder capitalism, fuck yeah

criddell 2y ago

What problem are you trying to solve with those conditions?

ziggyzecat 2y ago
- increase of brain power - smarter future voters - increasing participation in productive and constructive society - more voices and more discussion - eliminating the bias and discrimination against people who receive basic income - eliminating small scale opportunities to lazycheat - eliminate the continued rise of the currently too easily abused right leaning parts of the population - ... it will take time, of course
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]

VHRanger 2y ago

Conditional social benefits are always a nightmare in practice. Look at the rules to qualify for that high school style test or prove that you actually achieve the milestone. Assume they will be implemented by the most incompetent of bureaucrats (eg. months to get an appointment, buggy Oracle software). Assume they will be implemented by the most nightmarish of your political opponents. Look for instance on rules for identification for voters in the southern USA. In theory that makes sense! In practice it's cynically implemented to systematically prevent certain demographics from voting. The main advantage of UBI in practice is that it's no questions asked. Anything else about it can be replicated by fiddling with tax and welfare bracket numbers.

ziggyzecat 2y ago
I agree, but a proper model and structure can be created. And voting for the right people won't be done if the voters aren't properly involved in increasing brain power and participating in social work/life.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic-jobs-against-hijacking-utopia/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2018/05/16/basic-income-not-basic... As long as it's not busy work I guess. I won't be surprised if those rules are poorly enforced though I'd be okay with just giving people money, even if it's less than cost of living, since that will push some people back from the edge. It may be used as an excuse to stay in dying rural towns and vote against my freedom but hell that happens anyway...

euroderf 2y ago
> As long as it's not busy work I guess Even digging holes in the ground and filling them up again is exercise. So... for people who are overweight and out of shape (as measured by standardized fitness tests executed under the gaze of a well-trained A.I.), also require (say) two half-hour exercise sessions (also under the gaze of a well-trained A.I.).
- footy 2y ago
  this is why humanities matter
- tempfile 2y ago
  I am begging you to say psych (or sike).
  - euroderf 2y ago
    Okay okay. Let's stick to digging ditches and filling them up again. WithOUT robotic assistance. Some sort of character-building exercise that keeps the Protestant Work Ethic -itarians happy.
    - tempfile 2y ago
      what? I was referring to this part: >as measured by standardized fitness tests executed under the gaze of a well-trained A.I.

spywaregorilla 2y ago

Ok great. So every single minimum wage worker quits their job and decides to study for three hours per day for an hourly wage of over 2x the previous minimum. Sounds to me like you've just created a massive labor shortage. What's next?

ziggyzecat 2y ago
i doubt that min wage workers will all quit, the extra money is what they need to live properly
- spywaregorilla 2y ago
  Right now workers do those jobs, because if they don't, they will die or become destitute. If you change their incentive to be they can work an unpleasant job while rent and food is guaranteed, you're going to find that the marginal value of that 12 euros an hour has plummeted. It's not worth it to work a terrible minimum wage job if your basic needs are satisfied
  - ziggyzecat 2y ago
    it's still not enough to raise children, for example, or buy a car, or get more culture. you need that extra money and it will be easier doing that shitty job if you get enough time for variety and your bank account statement doesn't raise your stress levels.
jakelazaroff 2y ago
The same thing as any other labor shortage? Employers offer more money, and people who want that money apply for those jobs?
- tempfile 2y ago
  How is society supposed to function without an underclass of poor and unhealthy wage slaves?

thrance 2y ago

That is a very bad idea, implementing this would result in a massive state apparatus that would be insanely expensive to run and most inefficient. People down on their luck would have to go through months of tribulations to prove they have the right to not starve, losing time not actually trying to climb out of their hole. Also the point of UBI is that it is unconditional (The U stands for Univeral). It is supposed to be a simpler, fairer welfare system that allows everyone to focus on improving their lives instead of trying to survive.

ziggyzecat 2y ago
the state apparatus dealing with unemployment is already massive and it's resources can be reallocated. with hundreds of millions of refugees and immigrants from zones that will get fried by climate change, you really have no chance if you don't increase the efforts, capacity and variety of approaches of all state institutions.

DJBunnies 2y ago

Not exactly universal as such.

ziggyzecat 2y ago
rebrand it then

rob74 2y ago

Maybe you should read the definition of Universal Basic Income first: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income - although it's actually already contained in the name. The proposal is to have less or no bureaucratic hurdles before being able to receive it, and here you are proposing even more bureaucracy...

ziggyzecat 2y ago
I know. The point is that for the biggest part of people receiving money without conditions, does not result in a favorable outcome for society, themselves and only a moderately good outcome for the economy
- pif 2y ago
  > does not result in a favorable outcome for society That's your respectable opinion, but the truth is: we don't know! You may be right, you may be wrong, but this is the crux of the discussion and you cannot swipe it off by stating an opinion as a fact.
  - ziggyzecat 2y ago
    Agreed. Thnks for pointing that out. I still didn't get around studying all those fallacies and how to argue logically. I should learn about one per day and find an example when the fallacy becomes a non-fallacy. But isn't it a measurable factor? ... people get free stuff, people don't question their benefactor, people agree to rely on him, people become dependent beyond the extent of constructive codependence

torlok 2y ago

This sounds like an absolute nightmare to implement. The point of UBI is to have a safety net so that you can spread your wings and pursue passion projects and ventures. It's not supposed to be a ball and chain you bear so that you can eat while tech billionaires do everything they can to price you out of the job market. Not everybody has daddy's money to spend while they work on their startup.

ziggyzecat 2y ago
your passion projects become paid studies and the implementation can be your social / civic / field work. it's still a guaranteed safety net, except with a growing level of accountability. not everybody has passion projects, not everybody who had youth when he couldn't handle it, has money or peace of mind to go back to school, and a UBI won't hold you accountable. some people need to learn/ relearn how to take responsibility for themselves and a low end job where they learn the retarded rules of the hoarder-capitalist "we-run-on-magic-math-money" economy obviously isn't constructive or productive. if it was, the right / alt right wouldn't grow their follower base. but yes, the implementation will need a huge bunch of devs and admin people who are technical, capable and, "under different circumstances, wouldn't work for so much less money than they earned during their previous employments"

newsclues 2y ago

I’m going to study fascism instead of working.

ziggyzecat 2y ago
you'll learn how it's just a tool for inferior men to abuse people in order to compensate for a very specific but acquirable lack of adaptivity to the real world, a growing world population and eventual colonization of space
- newsclues 2y ago
  So like communism?
  - ziggyzecat 2y ago
    nope. communism is when people do what must be done while criticizing each other for fun ... you know, like people who don't feel the need to pseudo-dominate. people rarely get to see communism in action. what you know as communism is some early access pre-alpha where half the code is duck tape polished with spit. there is a convention to ignore that communism never organized. it wouldn't have anyway. too many corrupt humans. it's too bad humans didn't learn in time about emotional and cognitive exploits, sabotage of bias and fallacies and pseudo-dominance. only because of that did so many good men die in pointless wars. 'member how the smartest scientist & engineers were all for communism back in the day? that's because they understood machines and wanted to build for eternity. then the magic-money guys, who always lose against honest competition, came around and established their pseudo-dominant financial hierarchies and threatened and scared people and now we have planned obsolescence, "the right to repair", influencers and make-up that will make you look mid-chemo 70 before you are 40. hoarder capitalism, fuck yeah