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> "weaponisation of dissent" from community groups over new wind farms and transmission lines. Really baffling for an extremely sparse country with a huge des

by oefrha 2y ago

> "weaponisation of dissent" from community groups over new wind farms and transmission lines. Really baffling for an extremely sparse country with a huge desert in the center that shouldn’t be in anyone’s backyard.

ggm 2y ago
Plants are put at the closest point to consumption they can be because transmission losses go to profits. Frankly a decent HVDC system should minimise but thats heinously expensive. So there we are: in electricity markets you want to put the generator close to the consumer. Nobody lives in the desert. So, there's no decent transmission systems. People live in the right hand side of the dividing range, or close to it. So we put energy distribution systems close to the east, and thats where the power stations are, and so thats where the transmission lines are, and they need to be upgraded so a lot of farmers who will see their neighbours lines, but won't get $100,000 line offset money are angry. If you want examples of "make it in the desert" then you're looking at a Queensland project called "CopperString" and at the work Mike Cannon-Brookes "Sun Cable" project in the Northern Territory. Or, the huge investments in solar made by the mostly-deserted-lands mining and minerals sector, replacing super-expensive diesel for their off-grid power needs (mainly in West Australia)
- ericd 2y ago
  I’m curious, what’s so heinously expensive about HVDC vs normal HV transmission lines? Is it just that they’re less common, so there’s no economies of scale yet, or is it something fundamental to HVDC itself?
  - ggm 2y ago
    Rather than attempt a reply, I suggest https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-syst... as a good read. There's a break-even point. But, that assumes you WANT to transfer electricity over the distance. Given that the desert is more than 600km from most habitation I agree that per-unit-travel it's not more expensive, but the thing is there are viable sites for generation closer to the location of use, which means both transmission cost and losses, and cost-of-construction are below the break even point: If you want to use deserted regions, you have to be prepared to front load the construction cost with higher total costs. The Sun Cable system being planned for the N.T. will be using HVDC to transmit power into Indonesia and Singapore, if it gets off the ground. The Trans-tasman electricity feeder cable is HVDC (for instance) but people continue to argue it is not economically viable, despite Tasmania have huge hydro power resources and arguably being able to do what the Snowy 2.0 Pumped Hydro is meant to do. W.A. is 2000km from the eastern Seaboard. an HVDC would work fine. There is no strong economic drive to make the eastern seaboard transmission network which spans South Australia, Tasmania, Victoria, N.S.W. and Queensland a national grid.
    - ericd 2y ago
      Thanks for explaining! That makes sense, it’s mostly that it’s mainly used for relatively long distances. I’m not very familiar with Aussie projects, but it’s cool to hear that the govt there seems to be aggressively planning for this type of cross-regional energy transfer.

by oefrha 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

Plants are put at the closest point to consumption they can be because transmission losses go to profits. Frankly a decent HVDC system should minimise but thats heinously expensive. So there we are: in electricity markets you want to put the generator close to the consumer. Nobody lives in the desert. So, there's no decent transmission systems. People live in the right hand side of the dividing range, or close to it. So we put energy distribution systems close to the east, and thats where the power stations are, and so thats where the transmission lines are, and they need to be upgraded so a lot of farmers who will see their neighbours lines, but won't get $100,000 line offset money are angry. If you want examples of "make it in the desert" then you're looking at a Queensland project called "CopperString" and at the work Mike Cannon-Brookes "Sun Cable" project in the Northern Territory. Or, the huge investments in solar made by the mostly-deserted-lands mining and minerals sector, replacing super-expensive diesel for their off-grid power needs (mainly in West Australia)

ericd 2y ago
I’m curious, what’s so heinously expensive about HVDC vs normal HV transmission lines? Is it just that they’re less common, so there’s no economies of scale yet, or is it something fundamental to HVDC itself?
- ggm 2y ago
  Rather than attempt a reply, I suggest https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-systems https://www.cencepower.com/blog-posts/hvdc-transmission-syst... as a good read. There's a break-even point. But, that assumes you WANT to transfer electricity over the distance. Given that the desert is more than 600km from most habitation I agree that per-unit-travel it's not more expensive, but the thing is there are viable sites for generation closer to the location of use, which means both transmission cost and losses, and cost-of-construction are below the break even point: If you want to use deserted regions, you have to be prepared to front load the construction cost with higher total costs. The Sun Cable system being planned for the N.T. will be using HVDC to transmit power into Indonesia and Singapore, if it gets off the ground. The Trans-tasman electricity feeder cable is HVDC (for instance) but people continue to argue it is not economically viable, despite Tasmania have huge hydro power resources and arguably being able to do what the Snowy 2.0 Pumped Hydro is meant to do. W.A. is 2000km from the eastern Seaboard. an HVDC would work fine. There is no strong economic drive to make the eastern seaboard transmission network which spans South Australia, Tasmania, Victoria, N.S.W. and Queensland a national grid.
  - ericd 2y ago
    Thanks for explaining! That makes sense, it’s mostly that it’s mainly used for relatively long distances. I’m not very familiar with Aussie projects, but it’s cool to hear that the govt there seems to be aggressively planning for this type of cross-regional energy transfer.