5 ms·

Hot take, but 3-generation nuclear families do not work if there are 30-35 years between generations. The average age of childbirth has gone by ~10 years over

by screye 2y ago

Hot take, but 3-generation nuclear families do not work if there are 30-35 years between generations. The average age of childbirth has gone by ~10 years over the last 50 years. So instead of having 22 yr old parents and 45 yr old grandparents.... you now have 32 yr old parents and 65 yr old grandparents. A 45 yr old grandparent is an able-bodied helper. A 65 yr old is a dependent. This is doubly true once you realize that obesity rates are rising and having grandparents as guests in cities is getting prohibitively expensive. Don't have a general-purpose solution at hand. All options feel horrible. But, we don't seem to be making much progress in aging....so grand parents will often find themselves needing to help when they need a lot of help themselves. To individuals, I'd recommend prioritizing your health. If you avoid cancer, hip replacements, and heart disease, then you can easily live to your late 80s in good health. It is the greatest gift you can give yourself or your children. Attia is popular in these parts, maybe start there. p.s : I am in a sermonizing mood after I realized how bad my cardio had gotten in a recent hike.

ip26 2y ago
Here’s hoping improvements in healthspan save the day.
- screye 2y ago
  People need to want it. Most people eat worse and exercise less than the previous generation. A small visible minority do a lot more, but that doesn't speak to the health of the average individual. New GLP-1 agonists might medicate us into good health. But somehow, I am sceptical that it is going to be that simple.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
>This is doubly true once you realize that obesity rates are rising and having grandparents as guests in cities is getting prohibitively expensive. does this apply in Sweden?
- screye 2y ago
  I don't know enough about Sweden to comment authoritatively. I'm guessing urban prices and obesity are not the main factors in Sweden. Here, my half-baked intuition is the state takes on a paternalistic relationship with the individual. It undermines family & partners as the primary support system. Sweden has very-high rates of single parenthood [1] and children outside wedlock [2]. If individuals place low importance on the family as a unit, then I do not see why baby-sitting would appeal to Grandparents (to derive joy or as a duty) In a way, being paid to babysit makes a pure relationship seem rather transactional. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/11581511/share+of+single+parents+with+children.jpg/1ac27ed2-4c80-2c3c-eb6b-06d1bb44225a?t=1622531761489 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/11581511/sha... [2] https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Comparison-Europe-US.webp https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Comparison-E...
jojobas 2y ago
65 yo is not even pension age, what are you talking about? 45yo grandparents would be working full time and only have time on weekends anyway. I was babysat now and then by a 85 year old great-grandmother. Rising parental age is a catastrophe, but not for this reason.
- elsewhen 2y ago
  Why is it a catastrophe?
  - chongli 2y ago
    Because children are growing up less and less connected to their relatives. Not just grandparents but also cousins too [1]. This is contributing (along with 2-income households) to the decline of local cultures and institutions, and the death of community overall [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39340501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39340501 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
- qwerpy 2y ago
  Having gone through this recently with grandparents in their late 60s and 70s, it is absolutely a problem for new parents now. Both my dad and I had our first kids in our late 30s, and now he really struggles to do much of anything helpful for child care, despite wanting to. He has no energy, his poor eyesight and attention to detail make him untrustworthy for anything but "keep the kid in the playpen and let us know if anything happens". Similarly, my wife's parents struggled to take care of one relatively easy 1 year old between the two of them. Meanwhile some of our friends with late 50s/low 60s parents are able to fully entrust their kid to one of the grandparents and go out for date nights/weekends. My wife and I are able to somewhat compensate for the lack of family help by throwing vast sums of money at the problem, but not many parents can do what we do. Society messed up big time by allowing late parenthood to become the norm. It's really going to hurt future generations, but it's already making my generation shy away from having kids.
  - deleted 2y ago
blahedo 2y ago
> A 45 yr old grandparent is an able-bodied helper. A 65 yr old is a dependent.... What are you even talking about? My mother's parents were 74 and 76 when I was born and they were routinely my caregivers several times a week (while my parents were working) until I was about 6, and occasionally after that. That wouldn't work in every family, but the idea that "a 65 yr old is a dependent" is utterly unfounded as a general rule.
- tuatoru 2y ago
  An anecdote doesn't disprove a general rule.
  - nickez 2y ago
    Does the data support the "general rule" then? I think 65 year olds today are much more able than 65 year olds 50 years ago.
  - oefrha 2y ago
    Anecdote? Look up employment stats in any relatively old country, you’ll find that a significant portion of 65 year olds are still in the workforce. Calling them dependents is ridiculous. And in Asian American immigrant circles, 60+ yr old grandparents taking care of young children is basically the norm.
- CalRobert 2y ago
  Of my kids’ four grandparents, one recently died, one is massively obese and in a wheelchair, one is lazy, and one is able and willing to help. All are mid sixties to 71.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  > the idea that "a 65 yr old is a dependent" is utterly unfounded as a general rule. They're either dependent, or able-bodied, or dead. Not sure what the relative percentages are, but I doubt that "able-bodied and healthy enough to provide ongoing childcare for grandkids" is the majority here. Looking at my area (urban Poland) there's a matter of urbanization as well - plenty of parents in the cities are first-generation city dwellers; their parents live in the countryside. The logistics (and CoL in cities, as GP noted), makes involving grandparents on regular basis prohibitively expensive. N=1 in my case, we have one grandmother in the city, still professionally active (so limited time), and two grandparents retired and self-supporting, but living far away in the countryside (so unable to help most of the time).
wjholden 2y ago
This is a really interesting theory and I agree with everything you said about taking care of your health. I think that your theory could be very easily tested with simple survey methods. Find grandparents, ask their age, and ask if they regularly care for their grandchildren. It doesn't really matter the age of their own children because we can basically infer it with the grandchildren being under 12. Such a survey could be improved by asking people their country. My anecdotal observation is that German grandparents provide much more childcare than their American counterparts, despite comparable generational gaps. Another anecdotal observation is the Filipino grandparents also provide more childcare with a smaller generational gap. A fourth useful question might be to ask why grandparents are raising kids. I speculate that in rich countries, it is because they want to, but in poor countries, it is because the 20/30-somethings are financially providing for both the children and the grandparents.
rustcleaner 2y ago
>The average age of childbirth has gone by ~10 years over the last 50 years. The tarbaby behind this is there's a direct correlation between women's education and age of childbirth, and inverse with fertility rate. This crosses cultures and isn't Western-exclusive. The fallout is also the impetus for replacement migration policies, lest the debt-entitlement schemes fail. takes cover
- 1992spacemovie 2y ago
  > The fallout is also the impetus for replacement migration policies, lest the debt-entitlement schemes fail. And every boomer who championed this braindead idea will get EXACTLY what is coming to them. It will be glorious and I will absolutely laugh and mock them.
  - screye 2y ago
    Could you elaborate on this. I am struggling to follow this conversation.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    You won't be laughing at them, you'll be living the consequences.
  - sickofparadox 2y ago
    Many of them already are feeling the effects of it, especially with nurses.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
dragonwriter 2y ago
> Hot take, but 3-generation nuclear families Nuclear families are, by definition, two-generation; 3-generation families are one of the more common things that nuclear families are defined in opposition to.
xarope 2y ago
> A 65 yr old is a dependent that may be true for some, but others I have seen are highly capable at that age still. And of course in the US we have two octogenarians running to be presidents.
j7ake 2y ago
Disagree. Having grandparents who are 65 means they’re close to retirement meaning more free time. Having grandparents at 45 means they are still at peak earning capacity, and likely earning more than their 22 year old kids, so it wouldn’t make economic sense for 45 year olds to take time off.

by screye 2y ago

ip26 2y ago

Here’s hoping improvements in healthspan save the day.

screye 2y ago
People need to want it. Most people eat worse and exercise less than the previous generation. A small visible minority do a lot more, but that doesn't speak to the health of the average individual. New GLP-1 agonists might medicate us into good health. But somehow, I am sceptical that it is going to be that simple.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

>This is doubly true once you realize that obesity rates are rising and having grandparents as guests in cities is getting prohibitively expensive. does this apply in Sweden?

screye 2y ago
I don't know enough about Sweden to comment authoritatively. I'm guessing urban prices and obesity are not the main factors in Sweden. Here, my half-baked intuition is the state takes on a paternalistic relationship with the individual. It undermines family & partners as the primary support system. Sweden has very-high rates of single parenthood [1] and children outside wedlock [2]. If individuals place low importance on the family as a unit, then I do not see why baby-sitting would appeal to Grandparents (to derive joy or as a duty) In a way, being paid to babysit makes a pure relationship seem rather transactional. [1] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/11581511/share+of+single+parents+with+children.jpg/1ac27ed2-4c80-2c3c-eb6b-06d1bb44225a?t=1622531761489 https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/4187653/11581511/sha... [2] https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Comparison-Europe-US.webp https://bigthink.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Comparison-E...

jojobas 2y ago

65 yo is not even pension age, what are you talking about? 45yo grandparents would be working full time and only have time on weekends anyway. I was babysat now and then by a 85 year old great-grandmother. Rising parental age is a catastrophe, but not for this reason.

elsewhen 2y ago
Why is it a catastrophe?
- chongli 2y ago
  Because children are growing up less and less connected to their relatives. Not just grandparents but also cousins too [1]. This is contributing (along with 2-income households) to the decline of local cultures and institutions, and the death of community overall [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39340501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39340501 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowling_Alone
qwerpy 2y ago
Having gone through this recently with grandparents in their late 60s and 70s, it is absolutely a problem for new parents now. Both my dad and I had our first kids in our late 30s, and now he really struggles to do much of anything helpful for child care, despite wanting to. He has no energy, his poor eyesight and attention to detail make him untrustworthy for anything but "keep the kid in the playpen and let us know if anything happens". Similarly, my wife's parents struggled to take care of one relatively easy 1 year old between the two of them. Meanwhile some of our friends with late 50s/low 60s parents are able to fully entrust their kid to one of the grandparents and go out for date nights/weekends. My wife and I are able to somewhat compensate for the lack of family help by throwing vast sums of money at the problem, but not many parents can do what we do. Society messed up big time by allowing late parenthood to become the norm. It's really going to hurt future generations, but it's already making my generation shy away from having kids.
- deleted 2y ago

blahedo 2y ago

> A 45 yr old grandparent is an able-bodied helper. A 65 yr old is a dependent.... What are you even talking about? My mother's parents were 74 and 76 when I was born and they were routinely my caregivers several times a week (while my parents were working) until I was about 6, and occasionally after that. That wouldn't work in every family, but the idea that "a 65 yr old is a dependent" is utterly unfounded as a general rule.

tuatoru 2y ago
An anecdote doesn't disprove a general rule.
- nickez 2y ago
  Does the data support the "general rule" then? I think 65 year olds today are much more able than 65 year olds 50 years ago.
- oefrha 2y ago
  Anecdote? Look up employment stats in any relatively old country, you’ll find that a significant portion of 65 year olds are still in the workforce. Calling them dependents is ridiculous. And in Asian American immigrant circles, 60+ yr old grandparents taking care of young children is basically the norm.
CalRobert 2y ago
Of my kids’ four grandparents, one recently died, one is massively obese and in a wheelchair, one is lazy, and one is able and willing to help. All are mid sixties to 71.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> the idea that "a 65 yr old is a dependent" is utterly unfounded as a general rule. They're either dependent, or able-bodied, or dead. Not sure what the relative percentages are, but I doubt that "able-bodied and healthy enough to provide ongoing childcare for grandkids" is the majority here. Looking at my area (urban Poland) there's a matter of urbanization as well - plenty of parents in the cities are first-generation city dwellers; their parents live in the countryside. The logistics (and CoL in cities, as GP noted), makes involving grandparents on regular basis prohibitively expensive. N=1 in my case, we have one grandmother in the city, still professionally active (so limited time), and two grandparents retired and self-supporting, but living far away in the countryside (so unable to help most of the time).

wjholden 2y ago

This is a really interesting theory and I agree with everything you said about taking care of your health. I think that your theory could be very easily tested with simple survey methods. Find grandparents, ask their age, and ask if they regularly care for their grandchildren. It doesn't really matter the age of their own children because we can basically infer it with the grandchildren being under 12. Such a survey could be improved by asking people their country. My anecdotal observation is that German grandparents provide much more childcare than their American counterparts, despite comparable generational gaps. Another anecdotal observation is the Filipino grandparents also provide more childcare with a smaller generational gap. A fourth useful question might be to ask why grandparents are raising kids. I speculate that in rich countries, it is because they want to, but in poor countries, it is because the 20/30-somethings are financially providing for both the children and the grandparents.

rustcleaner 2y ago

>The average age of childbirth has gone by ~10 years over the last 50 years. The tarbaby behind this is there's a direct correlation between women's education and age of childbirth, and inverse with fertility rate. This crosses cultures and isn't Western-exclusive. The fallout is also the impetus for replacement migration policies, lest the debt-entitlement schemes fail. takes cover

1992spacemovie 2y ago
> The fallout is also the impetus for replacement migration policies, lest the debt-entitlement schemes fail. And every boomer who championed this braindead idea will get EXACTLY what is coming to them. It will be glorious and I will absolutely laugh and mock them.
- screye 2y ago
  Could you elaborate on this. I am struggling to follow this conversation.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  You won't be laughing at them, you'll be living the consequences.
- sickofparadox 2y ago
  Many of them already are feeling the effects of it, especially with nurses.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

dragonwriter 2y ago

> Hot take, but 3-generation nuclear families Nuclear families are, by definition, two-generation; 3-generation families are one of the more common things that nuclear families are defined in opposition to.

xarope 2y ago

> A 65 yr old is a dependent that may be true for some, but others I have seen are highly capable at that age still. And of course in the US we have two octogenarians running to be presidents.

j7ake 2y ago

Disagree. Having grandparents who are 65 means they’re close to retirement meaning more free time. Having grandparents at 45 means they are still at peak earning capacity, and likely earning more than their 22 year old kids, so it wouldn’t make economic sense for 45 year olds to take time off.