7 ms·

Author here if anyone has questions...

by kens 2y ago

java-man 2y ago
Thank you for your work, every article brightens my day! Every time I look at the chips from 70s and 80s, I notice how huge the features are. Was that determined by the current stepper technology at the time, or by the fact that people drew the early designs by hand? Or am I totally wrong and the chips are always at the limit of the contemporary technology?
- kens 2y ago
  The feature size on chips has steadily shrunk from 10 µm for the Intel 8008 to a few nanometers nowadays. The feature size is determined by the limits of contemporary technology, which steadily improves as described by Moore's Law. Many different technological aspects need to improve to shrink the features, from the design techniques to the optics to the chemical processes.
  - Pet_Ant 2y ago
    10 is 10,000 nm. "3nm" apparently has a "gate pitch" of 48 nm, that is 0.5% of the size! I don't know that "gate pitch" is the correct metric, but I do know that modern marketing nodes don't correspond to reality so this is my crude attempt at trying to bring it to physical reality. Not sure if I did it correctly.
- bobmcnamara 2y ago
  > Or am I totally wrong and the chips are always at the limit of the contemporary technology? I can chime in here. There are many things that determine the feature size. There is the process limit, yes, and if your needs are simple digital logic, that's often going to be the density limit. But if you need NOR flash, there's a stability limit around 40nm process node. You can use smaller transistors for everything else, but soon the NOR is most of the chip. But what if you need a 1 Amp FET in your PMIC? Well, that won't shrink with process node at all, so maybe a cheaper process node is better to use. It really depends.
  - java-man 2y ago
    Yes, I was referring to 70's and 80's. Even today, I think, there are applications where 150 nm process is perfectly fine - RFID, transportation cards etc. If you look at the 74 TTL series dies, they look almost primitive. But perhaps these were one of the first attempts at ICs, so it is expected. When did transition from hand-drawn to computer-generated designs happen?
    - greenyoda 2y ago
      > If you look at the 74 TTL series dies, they look almost primitive. But perhaps these were one of the first attempts at ICs... TTL wasn't the first attempt at ICs. Before TTL, there was RTL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor%E2%80%93transistor_logic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor%E2%80%93transistor_lo...
    - bonzini 2y ago
      Around the mid 80s, for example the 386 was the first x86 processor to largely use standard cells. It seems appropriate to cite Ken's blog post on the topic: https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html
  - CamperBob2 2y ago
    But what if you need a 1 Amp FET in your PMIC? You use lots of very small FETs in parallel (and derate the living bejesus out of the SOA curves, because there's no chance that they'll all run at the same temperature.)
    - kragen 2y ago
      i mean in effect a hexfet is a lot of very small fets in parallel nice thing about fets, hotspots don't hog current, so you don't have to derate the living bejesus out of the soa curves
      - CamperBob2 2y ago
renewedrebecca 2y ago
Really appreciate the work you do on documenting these chips. It's awesome to see how the stuff I only worked with from the programming side works at the hardware level.
- kens 2y ago
  Thank you to you and all the others in this thread for your positive comments. I almost didn't write about this chip because it is so obscure, so it is encouraging that people are reading it.
  - anyfoo 2y ago
    In some ways, the obscurity makes it even more interesting. That's of course not to say that I didn't enjoy your articles about popular chips like the Z80 or any x86 variant as well, I really do. One is interesting because you get fantastic insight into the chips you've been using for so long, the other because it's a glimpse into an unfamiliar world.
mrgaro 2y ago
Thanks Master Ken for doing these awesome posts and participating in the Marc's youtube channel! Both amazing content!
kaladin_1 2y ago
Thanks a lot for the work you do in documenting these chips. I am a software engineer that mostly sell fullstack skills. After reading your article on the chip that powers Montreal subway, I developed an interest in chip architectures. I just finished these two books, The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder and Hackers by Steven Levy, they are historical books on computer design. If you have other good reads that a web dev can use in testing the waters I would appreciate.
- beachy 2y ago
  The Mythical Man Month by Fred Brooks is always worth a read. It's now an ancient tome (e.g talk of how much storage space comments take up) but there is a lot of wisdom there and it certainly ticks the historical box. It's one of the only books I re-read regularly.
  - jdougan 2y ago
    I also reread MMM from time to time. Also Peopleware and Yourdon's Death March.
- kragen 2y ago
  if you want to understand chip architectures, work through the elements of computing systems (aka nand to tetris). it walks you through implementing your own cpu, gate by gate, plus an operating system, compiler, and tetris game, in a way tested to successfully fit inside of a single-semester undergraduate class. their hardware designs are pretty weird (their hdl looks nothing like any hdl you can actually synthesize hardware from, their descriptions of how gates work are oversimplified, and their instruction set architecture is pretty similar to the eclipse that kidder was writing about but completely unlike any current design) but that isn't really important after completing the work in that book and raising investment capital for your company, you can honestly call yourself a fullstack engineer — arm — the best architecture to write assembly for is the arm—the original one, not thumb, which is a bit of a pain—and arm is also only slightly more complex to build than the fake-ass architecture in nand2tetris, and quite a bit faster. if you already know any assembly language, including the nand2tetris one, the best introduction to arm might not actually be any current tutorial but rather the vlsi arm3 datasheet from 01990 https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/riscos/docs/ARM3-datasheet_ARM-Family-Data-Manual-VLSI.pdf https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/riscos/docs/ARM3-d... which has a summary of the instruction set on p.1-7 (9/56) and a fully complete description on pp.3-12 to 3-43 (19/56 to 34/56) as you probably know, the vast majority of the cpus around you run the arm instruction set or its thumb variant, although amd64 and aarch64 (arm64) are also significant. the current arm architecture reference manual describes all the new instructions that have been added since arm3, as well as thumb, which makes it enormous and intimidating, with a very low signal-to-noise ratio if you don't know any assembly, the three best actual tutorials for arm that i've found are https://www.coranac.com/tonc/text/asm.htm https://www.coranac.com/tonc/text/asm.htm (aimed at the gameboy advance), https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210531-00/?p=105265 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210531-00/?p=10... (aimed at windows 10, thumb-only), and https://azeria-labs.com/writing-arm-assembly-part-1/ https://azeria-labs.com/writing-arm-assembly-part-1/ (aimed at crackers). these are all much longer than the relevant part of the arm3 datasheet but will guide you through how to actually use the things — teensy programs — perhaps the best introduction to writing assembly language in general on current systems is https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.ht..., which is not really focused on assembly at all, but on understanding how the interface between the operating system (i386 linux in this case) and user programs work, which just happens to be at the assembly-language level it's also a lot more fun to read than any of these except maybe kidder and levy — risc-v — the risc-v architecture is very similar to arm but simpler; however, it's a little more of a pain to program, and there aren't any high-performance implementations of it out there, something that's likely to change in the next few years. the part of the risc-v manual https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/riscv-spec-20191213.pdf https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/riscv-spec-2019... that corresponds to the part of the arm3 manual i recommended above is chapter 2, rv32i base integer instruction set, pp.13–29. this reflects an additional 30 years of computer architecture lessons from arm and its successors, and a lot of those lessons are helpfully explained in the italic notes in the text. geohot livecoded a full implementation of risc-v in verilog on his twitch stream a few years ago, so you can literally implement risc-v in an afternoon: https://github.com/geohot/twitchcore https://github.com/geohot/twitchcore gcc can compile to risc-v and generates decent code, and linux can run on it, but the risc-v that linux runs on is quite a bit hairier to implement than the rv32i isa; you have to implement the risc-v privileged isa — if what you're interested in is how varied cpu architectures can be — probably risc-v and arm won't do it for you the nand2tetris 'hack' is pretty weird, and very similar not only to the dirty genitals nova, but also to chuck thacker's 'tiny computer for teaching' https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1112/ECAD+Arch/files/Thacker-A_Tiny_Computer-3.pdf https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1112/ECAD+Arch/files/Thack... which is two pages of vhdl weird in a different direction is the tera mta, which has 128 hardware threads and context-switches every clock cycle; the 11¢ padauk pmc251 microcontroller does the same thing (but with only two threads; padauk sells parts with up to four threads) the tera mta was designed to compete in the vector supercomputer field originally defined by the cray-1, which had a very different architecture; the convex https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40979684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40979684 was very similar to the cray-1 in a sense, though, the cray wasn't really the first supercomputer; the cdc 6600, also designed by seymour cray, was, and it was arguably the first risc, in 01964 unlike all of these, the burroughs 5500 architecture had no registers, just a stack, and that's what smalltalk, java, and c# are based on the 12-bit pdp-8 was the first really mass-produced computer, with over 50000 units sold, and its architecture is interestingly different from all of these, too; intersil produced a 4000-gate single-chip version, and the family was popular enough that there are pdp-8 hobbyists even today most current numerical computation is being done on gpus, and i don't know what to recommend as reading material on gpus, which have bizarrely different instruction set architectures that use a model called 'simt', single instruction, multiple thread. if anyone does, let me know finally, chuck moore's line of two-stack processors based on forth are a sadly underdeveloped branch of the genealogical tree; koopman's stack computers: the new wave https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.html https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.htm... goes into their historical development a bit. they had some significant success in the 80s (the novix nc4000 and the harris rtx2000) but the later members of the family (the sh-boom, the mup21, the stillborn f21, the intellasys seaforth 40c18, and the greenarrays ga4 and ga144 chips) have no real users, in part due to malfeasance—after losing a protracted lawsuit with moore, intellasys head dan leckrone now goes by 'mac leckrone', perhaps as a result there are lots of other interestingly different instruction set architectures out there: s/360, 6502, amd64, pic16, the erim cytocomputer, the thinking machines cm4, the em-4 dataflow machine, the maxim maxq, the as/400, webassembly, vulkan spir-v, the hp 9825 desk calculator, saturn (used in the hp 48gx), etc. i hope this is helpful!
throaway12345 2y ago
I really love these updates. I really appreciate your articles and they've made me go into a deep dive into the history of microchips and IC design in general. How did you get into this in the first place? From your blog I gather that you used to be in software (or still are).
- kens 2y ago
  How did I get into this? It started when I saw the simulation of the 6502 processor from the Visual6502 team [1]. It was very cool, but totally mysterious. I realized that even though I was a programmer and understood the "full stack", I had no idea how a processor chip actually worked. (I'd taken computer architecture courses but there's still a big jump to physical transistors on a chip.) I started looking at the 6502's circuits and one thing led to another and here I am today, reverse-engineering obscure chips with a microscope :-) [1] http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html
  - throaway12345 2y ago
    Hehehe. Maybe some day if somebody asks me "how did you get into ICs?" I'll have to answer "well, I kept reading Ken Shirriff's blog..." Also, what type of microscope do you use?
    - kens 2y ago
      I use an AmScope ME300TZB-2L-10M metallurgical microscope that I got for cheap on eBay. My friends all have cooler microscopes :-)

Author here if anyone has questions...

by kens 2y ago

Author here if anyone has questions...

Thank you for your work, every article brightens my day! Every time I look at the chips from 70s and 80s, I notice how huge the features are. Was that determined by the current stepper technology at the time, or by the fact that people drew the early designs by hand? Or am I totally wrong and the chips are always at the limit of the contemporary technology?

kens 2y ago
The feature size on chips has steadily shrunk from 10 µm for the Intel 8008 to a few nanometers nowadays. The feature size is determined by the limits of contemporary technology, which steadily improves as described by Moore's Law. Many different technological aspects need to improve to shrink the features, from the design techniques to the optics to the chemical processes.
- Pet_Ant 2y ago
  10 is 10,000 nm. "3nm" apparently has a "gate pitch" of 48 nm, that is 0.5% of the size! I don't know that "gate pitch" is the correct metric, but I do know that modern marketing nodes don't correspond to reality so this is my crude attempt at trying to bring it to physical reality. Not sure if I did it correctly.
bobmcnamara 2y ago
> Or am I totally wrong and the chips are always at the limit of the contemporary technology? I can chime in here. There are many things that determine the feature size. There is the process limit, yes, and if your needs are simple digital logic, that's often going to be the density limit. But if you need NOR flash, there's a stability limit around 40nm process node. You can use smaller transistors for everything else, but soon the NOR is most of the chip. But what if you need a 1 Amp FET in your PMIC? Well, that won't shrink with process node at all, so maybe a cheaper process node is better to use. It really depends.
- java-man 2y ago
  Yes, I was referring to 70's and 80's. Even today, I think, there are applications where 150 nm process is perfectly fine - RFID, transportation cards etc. If you look at the 74 TTL series dies, they look almost primitive. But perhaps these were one of the first attempts at ICs, so it is expected. When did transition from hand-drawn to computer-generated designs happen?
  - greenyoda 2y ago
    > If you look at the 74 TTL series dies, they look almost primitive. But perhaps these were one of the first attempts at ICs... TTL wasn't the first attempt at ICs. Before TTL, there was RTL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor%E2%80%93transistor_logic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resistor%E2%80%93transistor_lo...
  - bonzini 2y ago
    Around the mid 80s, for example the 386 was the first x86 processor to largely use standard cells. It seems appropriate to cite Ken's blog post on the topic: https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html https://www.righto.com/2024/01/intel-386-standard-cells.html
- CamperBob2 2y ago
  But what if you need a 1 Amp FET in your PMIC? You use lots of very small FETs in parallel (and derate the living bejesus out of the SOA curves, because there's no chance that they'll all run at the same temperature.)
  - kragen 2y ago
    i mean in effect a hexfet is a lot of very small fets in parallel nice thing about fets, hotspots don't hog current, so you don't have to derate the living bejesus out of the soa curves
    - CamperBob2 2y ago

renewedrebecca 2y ago

Really appreciate the work you do on documenting these chips. It's awesome to see how the stuff I only worked with from the programming side works at the hardware level.

kens 2y ago
Thank you to you and all the others in this thread for your positive comments. I almost didn't write about this chip because it is so obscure, so it is encouraging that people are reading it.
- anyfoo 2y ago
  In some ways, the obscurity makes it even more interesting. That's of course not to say that I didn't enjoy your articles about popular chips like the Z80 or any x86 variant as well, I really do. One is interesting because you get fantastic insight into the chips you've been using for so long, the other because it's a glimpse into an unfamiliar world.

mrgaro 2y ago

Thanks Master Ken for doing these awesome posts and participating in the Marc's youtube channel! Both amazing content!

kaladin_1 2y ago

Thanks a lot for the work you do in documenting these chips. I am a software engineer that mostly sell fullstack skills. After reading your article on the chip that powers Montreal subway, I developed an interest in chip architectures. I just finished these two books, The Soul of a New Machine by Tracy Kidder and Hackers by Steven Levy, they are historical books on computer design. If you have other good reads that a web dev can use in testing the waters I would appreciate.

beachy 2y ago
The Mythical Man Month by Fred Brooks is always worth a read. It's now an ancient tome (e.g talk of how much storage space comments take up) but there is a lot of wisdom there and it certainly ticks the historical box. It's one of the only books I re-read regularly.
- jdougan 2y ago
  I also reread MMM from time to time. Also Peopleware and Yourdon's Death March.
kragen 2y ago
if you want to understand chip architectures, work through the elements of computing systems (aka nand to tetris). it walks you through implementing your own cpu, gate by gate, plus an operating system, compiler, and tetris game, in a way tested to successfully fit inside of a single-semester undergraduate class. their hardware designs are pretty weird (their hdl looks nothing like any hdl you can actually synthesize hardware from, their descriptions of how gates work are oversimplified, and their instruction set architecture is pretty similar to the eclipse that kidder was writing about but completely unlike any current design) but that isn't really important after completing the work in that book and raising investment capital for your company, you can honestly call yourself a fullstack engineer — arm — the best architecture to write assembly for is the arm—the original one, not thumb, which is a bit of a pain—and arm is also only slightly more complex to build than the fake-ass architecture in nand2tetris, and quite a bit faster. if you already know any assembly language, including the nand2tetris one, the best introduction to arm might not actually be any current tutorial but rather the vlsi arm3 datasheet from 01990 https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/riscos/docs/ARM3-datasheet_ARM-Family-Data-Manual-VLSI.pdf https://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/riscos/docs/ARM3-d... which has a summary of the instruction set on p.1-7 (9/56) and a fully complete description on pp.3-12 to 3-43 (19/56 to 34/56) as you probably know, the vast majority of the cpus around you run the arm instruction set or its thumb variant, although amd64 and aarch64 (arm64) are also significant. the current arm architecture reference manual describes all the new instructions that have been added since arm3, as well as thumb, which makes it enormous and intimidating, with a very low signal-to-noise ratio if you don't know any assembly, the three best actual tutorials for arm that i've found are https://www.coranac.com/tonc/text/asm.htm https://www.coranac.com/tonc/text/asm.htm (aimed at the gameboy advance), https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210531-00/?p=105265 https://devblogs.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20210531-00/?p=10... (aimed at windows 10, thumb-only), and https://azeria-labs.com/writing-arm-assembly-part-1/ https://azeria-labs.com/writing-arm-assembly-part-1/ (aimed at crackers). these are all much longer than the relevant part of the arm3 datasheet but will guide you through how to actually use the things — teensy programs — perhaps the best introduction to writing assembly language in general on current systems is https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.html https://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/software/tiny/teensy.ht..., which is not really focused on assembly at all, but on understanding how the interface between the operating system (i386 linux in this case) and user programs work, which just happens to be at the assembly-language level it's also a lot more fun to read than any of these except maybe kidder and levy — risc-v — the risc-v architecture is very similar to arm but simpler; however, it's a little more of a pain to program, and there aren't any high-performance implementations of it out there, something that's likely to change in the next few years. the part of the risc-v manual https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/riscv-spec-20191213.pdf https://riscv.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/riscv-spec-2019... that corresponds to the part of the arm3 manual i recommended above is chapter 2, rv32i base integer instruction set, pp.13–29. this reflects an additional 30 years of computer architecture lessons from arm and its successors, and a lot of those lessons are helpfully explained in the italic notes in the text. geohot livecoded a full implementation of risc-v in verilog on his twitch stream a few years ago, so you can literally implement risc-v in an afternoon: https://github.com/geohot/twitchcore https://github.com/geohot/twitchcore gcc can compile to risc-v and generates decent code, and linux can run on it, but the risc-v that linux runs on is quite a bit hairier to implement than the rv32i isa; you have to implement the risc-v privileged isa — if what you're interested in is how varied cpu architectures can be — probably risc-v and arm won't do it for you the nand2tetris 'hack' is pretty weird, and very similar not only to the dirty genitals nova, but also to chuck thacker's 'tiny computer for teaching' https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1112/ECAD+Arch/files/Thacker-A_Tiny_Computer-3.pdf https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/1112/ECAD+Arch/files/Thack... which is two pages of vhdl weird in a different direction is the tera mta, which has 128 hardware threads and context-switches every clock cycle; the 11¢ padauk pmc251 microcontroller does the same thing (but with only two threads; padauk sells parts with up to four threads) the tera mta was designed to compete in the vector supercomputer field originally defined by the cray-1, which had a very different architecture; the convex https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40979684 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40979684 was very similar to the cray-1 in a sense, though, the cray wasn't really the first supercomputer; the cdc 6600, also designed by seymour cray, was, and it was arguably the first risc, in 01964 unlike all of these, the burroughs 5500 architecture had no registers, just a stack, and that's what smalltalk, java, and c# are based on the 12-bit pdp-8 was the first really mass-produced computer, with over 50000 units sold, and its architecture is interestingly different from all of these, too; intersil produced a 4000-gate single-chip version, and the family was popular enough that there are pdp-8 hobbyists even today most current numerical computation is being done on gpus, and i don't know what to recommend as reading material on gpus, which have bizarrely different instruction set architectures that use a model called 'simt', single instruction, multiple thread. if anyone does, let me know finally, chuck moore's line of two-stack processors based on forth are a sadly underdeveloped branch of the genealogical tree; koopman's stack computers: the new wave https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.html https://users.ece.cmu.edu/~koopman/stack_computers/index.htm... goes into their historical development a bit. they had some significant success in the 80s (the novix nc4000 and the harris rtx2000) but the later members of the family (the sh-boom, the mup21, the stillborn f21, the intellasys seaforth 40c18, and the greenarrays ga4 and ga144 chips) have no real users, in part due to malfeasance—after losing a protracted lawsuit with moore, intellasys head dan leckrone now goes by 'mac leckrone', perhaps as a result there are lots of other interestingly different instruction set architectures out there: s/360, 6502, amd64, pic16, the erim cytocomputer, the thinking machines cm4, the em-4 dataflow machine, the maxim maxq, the as/400, webassembly, vulkan spir-v, the hp 9825 desk calculator, saturn (used in the hp 48gx), etc. i hope this is helpful!

throaway12345 2y ago

I really love these updates. I really appreciate your articles and they've made me go into a deep dive into the history of microchips and IC design in general. How did you get into this in the first place? From your blog I gather that you used to be in software (or still are).

kens 2y ago
How did I get into this? It started when I saw the simulation of the 6502 processor from the Visual6502 team [1]. It was very cool, but totally mysterious. I realized that even though I was a programmer and understood the "full stack", I had no idea how a processor chip actually worked. (I'd taken computer architecture courses but there's still a big jump to physical transistors on a chip.) I started looking at the 6502's circuits and one thing led to another and here I am today, reverse-engineering obscure chips with a microscope :-) [1] http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html http://www.visual6502.org/JSSim/index.html
- throaway12345 2y ago
  Hehehe. Maybe some day if somebody asks me "how did you get into ICs?" I'll have to answer "well, I kept reading Ken Shirriff's blog..." Also, what type of microscope do you use?
  - kens 2y ago
    I use an AmScope ME300TZB-2L-10M metallurgical microscope that I got for cheap on eBay. My friends all have cooler microscopes :-)