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You didn't notice Brexit - a distinctly Tory-enabled change that wouldn't have happened if the Lib Dems or Labour had been in charge?

by AdamN 2y ago

zogrodea 2y ago
That's a legitimate point. The referendum was 8 years ago and I was 18 back then so there might be some myopia on my part.
- thatguymike 2y ago
  You haven't experienced a government other than the Tories, so it seems a bit rich to say you haven't seen a difference from who's elected. Some direct consequences of the last Republican government off the top of my head include abortion becoming much harder for many, many people; inequality-increasing tax policies; it becoming much harder for agencies to govern on things like climate change; and an attempted murderous coup in the capital? I don't think you can say it was inconsequential, regardless of your politics.
  - zogrodea 2y ago
    I mentioned I never saw a difference in my daily life specifically, in response to a Trump presidency being called "dystopian". I was of course alive when Labour was in charge and have memories of that time, but people still went by their daily lives just the same from what I can tell. The same goes for much on your list, except for increasing inequality which impacts people's standards of living. Some other comments produced better lists regarding the impact of his presidency (things I had not heard before and some which I wasn't think of like the pandemic - although I'mm not really sure either way how much better someone else would be in his place for that one). (Brexit did shake things up when that happened - I was hearing about jobs being paused at the time and people being unable to work.)
  - _heimdall 2y ago
    I don't actually remember exactly what the abortion changes were during his presidency specifically. Were most changes there at the state level during his office, or were there federal changes too? Roe was overturned on Biden's watch, though I guess you could pin that on Trump-appointed judges. > inequality-increasing tax policies Both parties are pretty bad about taxes though, especially when you consider money printing and federal deficit spending. Both aren'ttechnically a tax but they serve the same function of eroding individuals' buying power. The same goes for inflation, not technically a tax but it does erode the value of our money and if you ask the federal government they believe they, in conjunction with the Federal Reserve, can control inflation. > it becoming much harder for agencies to govern on things like climate change Are you thinking about the Chevron ruling here? If so that was Biden too, unless you want to blame the judges Trump appointed. > attempted murderous coup in the capital That's an unnecessarily inflammatory argument. We don't need to debate the specifics or exactly what happened, and I expect we largely agree, but if that was a murderous coup attempt it was an absolutely piss poor attempt and an even worse response from a government that would be legitimately under attack at that point. If it was a murderous coup inside the capital building I wouldn't expect our military to leave anyone standing.
    - lobocinza 2y ago
      Anyone calling that a "murderous coup" is just repeating narratives without thinking and/or just haven't lived enough to know what a real "murderous coup" is. For context this is what a coup attempt look like and this isn't what I would call murderous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUzc2Ilw_O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUzc2Ilw_O8
    - stubybubs 2y ago
      > unless you want to blame the judges Trump appointed. I mean, yes. That was the point of Mitch McConnell withholding Obama's SCOTUS seat nomination because it was too close to the end of his term, only to ram through Trump's pick in record time when RBG died. This was the plan, to get the court. "Under Biden" is completely disingenuous, the cases were not brought by the Biden administration, and were ruled on largely by Trump and Bush appointees.
mike_hearn 2y ago
There's nothing distinctly Tory about Brexit. 1. The Lib Dems also made a promise on an in/out referendum and it was in their 2010 manifesto. You may not recall this because in 2008 Jo Swinson said “the Liberal Democrats would like to have a referendum on the major issue of whether we are in or out of Europe” but by 2016 she was saying she can't forgive Cameron for allowing a vote. 2. Cameron only conceded on allowing a vote due to losing voters to UKIP, a different political party. He clearly didn't want to do it but his hand was forced by the voters. 3. Labour of course committed to and held the original in/out referendum in 1975. They also committed to holding a referendum on the EU Constitution, a promise they backpedalled on after similar referendums were lost in the Netherlands and France. Their 2015 manifesto promised an automatic referendum on any further transfer of powers to the EU. So all the major UK parties other than the SNP have a history of either promising or holding referendums on the EU. That isn't a surprise because the EU was a major source of constitutional stress and voter unhappiness on all sides of the political spectrum.

You didn't notice Brexit - a distinctly Tory-enabled change that wouldn't have happened if the Lib Dems or Labour had been in charge?

by AdamN 2y ago

You didn't notice Brexit - a distinctly Tory-enabled change that wouldn't have happened if the Lib Dems or Labour had been in charge?

zogrodea 2y ago

That's a legitimate point. The referendum was 8 years ago and I was 18 back then so there might be some myopia on my part.

thatguymike 2y ago
You haven't experienced a government other than the Tories, so it seems a bit rich to say you haven't seen a difference from who's elected. Some direct consequences of the last Republican government off the top of my head include abortion becoming much harder for many, many people; inequality-increasing tax policies; it becoming much harder for agencies to govern on things like climate change; and an attempted murderous coup in the capital? I don't think you can say it was inconsequential, regardless of your politics.
- zogrodea 2y ago
  I mentioned I never saw a difference in my daily life specifically, in response to a Trump presidency being called "dystopian". I was of course alive when Labour was in charge and have memories of that time, but people still went by their daily lives just the same from what I can tell. The same goes for much on your list, except for increasing inequality which impacts people's standards of living. Some other comments produced better lists regarding the impact of his presidency (things I had not heard before and some which I wasn't think of like the pandemic - although I'mm not really sure either way how much better someone else would be in his place for that one). (Brexit did shake things up when that happened - I was hearing about jobs being paused at the time and people being unable to work.)
- _heimdall 2y ago
  I don't actually remember exactly what the abortion changes were during his presidency specifically. Were most changes there at the state level during his office, or were there federal changes too? Roe was overturned on Biden's watch, though I guess you could pin that on Trump-appointed judges. > inequality-increasing tax policies Both parties are pretty bad about taxes though, especially when you consider money printing and federal deficit spending. Both aren'ttechnically a tax but they serve the same function of eroding individuals' buying power. The same goes for inflation, not technically a tax but it does erode the value of our money and if you ask the federal government they believe they, in conjunction with the Federal Reserve, can control inflation. > it becoming much harder for agencies to govern on things like climate change Are you thinking about the Chevron ruling here? If so that was Biden too, unless you want to blame the judges Trump appointed. > attempted murderous coup in the capital That's an unnecessarily inflammatory argument. We don't need to debate the specifics or exactly what happened, and I expect we largely agree, but if that was a murderous coup attempt it was an absolutely piss poor attempt and an even worse response from a government that would be legitimately under attack at that point. If it was a murderous coup inside the capital building I wouldn't expect our military to leave anyone standing.
  - lobocinza 2y ago
    Anyone calling that a "murderous coup" is just repeating narratives without thinking and/or just haven't lived enough to know what a real "murderous coup" is. For context this is what a coup attempt look like and this isn't what I would call murderous: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUzc2Ilw_O8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUzc2Ilw_O8
  - stubybubs 2y ago
    > unless you want to blame the judges Trump appointed. I mean, yes. That was the point of Mitch McConnell withholding Obama's SCOTUS seat nomination because it was too close to the end of his term, only to ram through Trump's pick in record time when RBG died. This was the plan, to get the court. "Under Biden" is completely disingenuous, the cases were not brought by the Biden administration, and were ruled on largely by Trump and Bush appointees.

mike_hearn 2y ago

There's nothing distinctly Tory about Brexit. 1. The Lib Dems also made a promise on an in/out referendum and it was in their 2010 manifesto. You may not recall this because in 2008 Jo Swinson said “the Liberal Democrats would like to have a referendum on the major issue of whether we are in or out of Europe” but by 2016 she was saying she can't forgive Cameron for allowing a vote. 2. Cameron only conceded on allowing a vote due to losing voters to UKIP, a different political party. He clearly didn't want to do it but his hand was forced by the voters. 3. Labour of course committed to and held the original in/out referendum in 1975. They also committed to holding a referendum on the EU Constitution, a promise they backpedalled on after similar referendums were lost in the Netherlands and France. Their 2015 manifesto promised an automatic referendum on any further transfer of powers to the EU. So all the major UK parties other than the SNP have a history of either promising or holding referendums on the EU. That isn't a surprise because the EU was a major source of constitutional stress and voter unhappiness on all sides of the political spectrum.