3 ms·

Someone flagged what I thought was a good comment so I couldn’t respond to it unfortunately. I honestly struggled to think of what would be a valuable way to h

Someone flagged what I thought was a good comment so I couldn’t respond to it unfortunately. I honestly struggled to think of what would be a valuable way to have this discussion and it seems like there’s no way to avoid a flamewar. The only thing I would add is that the English anthropologist Chris Knight wrote extensively about “sex strikes” (which goes beyond the simple act of sex of course, into the entire structural notion of child rearing as a social function) being the driver of cultural peace throughout human history in his critical 1991 book “blood relations” Relevant chapter: http://www.chrisknight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/Sex-Strike.pdf http://www.chrisknight.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/Sex-... Seems fairly obvious that’s what’s happening and mirrors historical birth rate crashes aligning with general breakup of long running social expectations Polybius wrote as such in 200BC: “ In our time all Greece was visited by a dearth of children and generally a decay of population, owing to which the cities were denuded of inhabitants, and a failure of productiveness resulted, though there were no long-continued wars or serious pestilences among us.” Birth rates crashe when people generally feel like there is no future for the current type of society or future societies that their current societies are headed towards. https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0234%3Abook%3D37%3Achapter%3D9# https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext... https://fabiusmaximus.com/2008/06/11/polybius/amp/ https://fabiusmaximus.com/2008/06/11/polybius/amp/

linearrust 2y ago
> Someone flagged what I thought was a good comment so I couldn’t respond to it unfortunately. The best and the worst comments tend to be flagged. Not sure why we aren't allowed to continue the discussion within 'flagged' comments. Just hide it for those who don't want to see flagged threads and let the rest of us continue on. > Birth rates crashe when people generally feel like there is no future for the current type of society or future societies that their current societies are headed towards. Perhaps in certain instances in the past, but I doubt it. The current birth rate decline is a result of intentional policies of the elites. Starting with Europe and the US in the 60s and 70s and then these policies eventually got exported to or forced upon our 'allies' or major trading partners. The implementation of these policies varied from pushing '2 is enough' style propaganda to encourage couples to limit the amount of children, propaganda programming to encourage females to put off child bearing to work and of course enacting drastic policies like the 1 child policy ( the 1 child policy wasn't a chinese policy but one of american/european demands for opening trade and attaining foreign investment ). You can see it with bangladesh, india, etc. They are being forced to adopt 'child planning' policies by the US and Europe in exchange for investment. No doubt africa will get the same demands in the near future. The birth rate decline isn't some natural quirk of society. It is a result of a planned systematic state policy. Everything from education to propaganda encourages men and women to have less children. What's laughable is that the same propagandists are scratching their heads wondering why fertility is declining all the while pushing propaganda to decrease fertility.
- AndrewKemendo 2y ago
  I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’ve yet to see a comprehensive elucidation of the kind of propaganda that you’re talking about in any kind of coherent or coordinated sense There are certainly anti-natalist groups out there, but I wouldn’t consider those some kind of elite. In fact they’re usually fairly heterodox. Similarly, the only people I see pushing natalism at this point are far right wing people Those don’t seem like coherent groups
  - linearrust 2y ago
    > I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’ve yet to see a comprehensive elucidation of the kind of propaganda that you’re talking about in any kind of coherent or coordinated sense What? Every major global institution and nation is backing 'family planning', encouraging women to work, etc. https://static.mothership.sg/1/2018/05/family-planning-cover.jpg https://static.mothership.sg/1/2018/05/family-planning-cover... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy > Similarly, the only people I see pushing natalism at this point are far right wing people And what 'far right' people are in charge of any major nation or global institution? None. You'd have to be blind or driven by agenda to not see it. For the past few decades, from hollywood to the UN to education, we've been getting a certain messaging. As an american, I don't remember a single time where we were encouraged to have lots of children. All the messaging, in school, on tv, in movies, etc were all discouraging you from having children early and having lots of them. Now whether it is a good thing or a bad thing it's up for debate. But it's silly to deny it. In modern times, birth rates are determined by the state. Prior to the current decline, many countries, such as china, iran, etc actually encouraged high birth rates and hence experienced population booms. We had a baby boom generation prior to the elites deciding to lower it. So if the elites really wanted a population boom, they can switch the messaging and get the propaganda going. The masses follow where the propaganda leads them.
s1artibartfast 2y ago
If you are talking about pjc50, I thought it was interesting as well, but also came off like a canned response or AI text. With respect to Knight and polybius, I agree that is an interesting perspective. It can also be viewed through the lens of the evolution of memes. Just like biological evolution, some species are dead ends, go extinct, or form unstable fits between organism and environment. It stands that we would expect the same to be true for memes. It seems reasonable that some memes, either individually or in combination can be detrimental in a way terminal to the individual or society. Evolutionary pressures being what they are, ideas that promote continuity will prevail unless there is a cataclysm. That said, changes can be abrupt and painful, like the bubonic plague killing half of Europe
- AndrewKemendo 2y ago
  I’m curious, are you using meme in the original Dawkins sense because if that is the case then I would fully and passionately agree with that to the extent where that is precisely what it seems like is happening I suppose I just don’t know what that meme is at this point so how would you define the previous memetic position that led to children as a regular part of life? Further, what is the new memetic position on children that is being implemented?
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    Yeah, I'm using it in the Dawkins context. I think this is an interesting topic, so I've been posting all over the thread with some of my thoughts. I'll start with increasing memes that I think are contributors to childrearing. I think risk aversion is a leading one. You see this in terms of teenage sex, drug use, and other risky behavior. The next increasing meme would be viewing the world through a materialistic and increasingly utilitarian economic lens. Think this comes at the cost of more sentimental for romantic view of existence. just looking at this threads, nearly every comment is materialist in nature: opportunity costs for leaving the workforce, social economic implications, ect. Conspicuously absent is discussion of experiential and emotional implications. What about people missing out on watching their child take their first steps or the joys and pains of the creative process that is nurturing a human into a functional adult. I think this also plays into the idea that work is intrinsically something to be minimized or avoided, opposed to something powering that can be directed. I acknowledge that I'm presenting these all as unsubstantiated personal opinion, but I think they have Merit and would be worthy of further scrutiny. Im not religious myself, but cant help but acknowledge the decline of religion it as an elephant in the room. Less so due to any specific religious doctrine, but the attention brings to non-material topics.
mistermann 2y ago
> I honestly struggled to think of what would be a valuable way to have this discussion and it seems like there’s no way to avoid a flamewar. High quality communication is not the goal of any current social media platform. Some platforms are ideologically opposed to it. From another comment: >> Not sure why we aren't allowed to continue the discussion within 'flagged' comments. The official reason: that "is not what HN is for". Such a thing could be built, but whether it could be monetized (it would be extremely unpopular), or whether there is any wealthy human in existence who would fund it for the good of humanity, seems highly unlikely.

linearrust 2y ago

> Someone flagged what I thought was a good comment so I couldn’t respond to it unfortunately. The best and the worst comments tend to be flagged. Not sure why we aren't allowed to continue the discussion within 'flagged' comments. Just hide it for those who don't want to see flagged threads and let the rest of us continue on. > Birth rates crashe when people generally feel like there is no future for the current type of society or future societies that their current societies are headed towards. Perhaps in certain instances in the past, but I doubt it. The current birth rate decline is a result of intentional policies of the elites. Starting with Europe and the US in the 60s and 70s and then these policies eventually got exported to or forced upon our 'allies' or major trading partners. The implementation of these policies varied from pushing '2 is enough' style propaganda to encourage couples to limit the amount of children, propaganda programming to encourage females to put off child bearing to work and of course enacting drastic policies like the 1 child policy ( the 1 child policy wasn't a chinese policy but one of american/european demands for opening trade and attaining foreign investment ). You can see it with bangladesh, india, etc. They are being forced to adopt 'child planning' policies by the US and Europe in exchange for investment. No doubt africa will get the same demands in the near future. The birth rate decline isn't some natural quirk of society. It is a result of a planned systematic state policy. Everything from education to propaganda encourages men and women to have less children. What's laughable is that the same propagandists are scratching their heads wondering why fertility is declining all the while pushing propaganda to decrease fertility.

AndrewKemendo 2y ago
I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’ve yet to see a comprehensive elucidation of the kind of propaganda that you’re talking about in any kind of coherent or coordinated sense There are certainly anti-natalist groups out there, but I wouldn’t consider those some kind of elite. In fact they’re usually fairly heterodox. Similarly, the only people I see pushing natalism at this point are far right wing people Those don’t seem like coherent groups
- linearrust 2y ago
  > I don’t necessarily disagree, but I’ve yet to see a comprehensive elucidation of the kind of propaganda that you’re talking about in any kind of coherent or coordinated sense What? Every major global institution and nation is backing 'family planning', encouraging women to work, etc. https://static.mothership.sg/1/2018/05/family-planning-cover.jpg https://static.mothership.sg/1/2018/05/family-planning-cover... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy > Similarly, the only people I see pushing natalism at this point are far right wing people And what 'far right' people are in charge of any major nation or global institution? None. You'd have to be blind or driven by agenda to not see it. For the past few decades, from hollywood to the UN to education, we've been getting a certain messaging. As an american, I don't remember a single time where we were encouraged to have lots of children. All the messaging, in school, on tv, in movies, etc were all discouraging you from having children early and having lots of them. Now whether it is a good thing or a bad thing it's up for debate. But it's silly to deny it. In modern times, birth rates are determined by the state. Prior to the current decline, many countries, such as china, iran, etc actually encouraged high birth rates and hence experienced population booms. We had a baby boom generation prior to the elites deciding to lower it. So if the elites really wanted a population boom, they can switch the messaging and get the propaganda going. The masses follow where the propaganda leads them.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

If you are talking about pjc50, I thought it was interesting as well, but also came off like a canned response or AI text. With respect to Knight and polybius, I agree that is an interesting perspective. It can also be viewed through the lens of the evolution of memes. Just like biological evolution, some species are dead ends, go extinct, or form unstable fits between organism and environment. It stands that we would expect the same to be true for memes. It seems reasonable that some memes, either individually or in combination can be detrimental in a way terminal to the individual or society. Evolutionary pressures being what they are, ideas that promote continuity will prevail unless there is a cataclysm. That said, changes can be abrupt and painful, like the bubonic plague killing half of Europe

AndrewKemendo 2y ago
I’m curious, are you using meme in the original Dawkins sense because if that is the case then I would fully and passionately agree with that to the extent where that is precisely what it seems like is happening I suppose I just don’t know what that meme is at this point so how would you define the previous memetic position that led to children as a regular part of life? Further, what is the new memetic position on children that is being implemented?
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  Yeah, I'm using it in the Dawkins context. I think this is an interesting topic, so I've been posting all over the thread with some of my thoughts. I'll start with increasing memes that I think are contributors to childrearing. I think risk aversion is a leading one. You see this in terms of teenage sex, drug use, and other risky behavior. The next increasing meme would be viewing the world through a materialistic and increasingly utilitarian economic lens. Think this comes at the cost of more sentimental for romantic view of existence. just looking at this threads, nearly every comment is materialist in nature: opportunity costs for leaving the workforce, social economic implications, ect. Conspicuously absent is discussion of experiential and emotional implications. What about people missing out on watching their child take their first steps or the joys and pains of the creative process that is nurturing a human into a functional adult. I think this also plays into the idea that work is intrinsically something to be minimized or avoided, opposed to something powering that can be directed. I acknowledge that I'm presenting these all as unsubstantiated personal opinion, but I think they have Merit and would be worthy of further scrutiny. Im not religious myself, but cant help but acknowledge the decline of religion it as an elephant in the room. Less so due to any specific religious doctrine, but the attention brings to non-material topics.

mistermann 2y ago

> I honestly struggled to think of what would be a valuable way to have this discussion and it seems like there’s no way to avoid a flamewar. High quality communication is not the goal of any current social media platform. Some platforms are ideologically opposed to it. From another comment: >> Not sure why we aren't allowed to continue the discussion within 'flagged' comments. The official reason: that "is not what HN is for". Such a thing could be built, but whether it could be monetized (it would be extremely unpopular), or whether there is any wealthy human in existence who would fund it for the good of humanity, seems highly unlikely.