8 ms·

> additional complexity tax Yes, but that should be offsetted by easier driver development. See the blog about Rust GPU driver for asahii linux, done in one mo

by mnau 2y ago

> additional complexity tax Yes, but that should be offsetted by easier driver development. See the blog about Rust GPU driver for asahii linux, done in one month. EDIT: Google "tales of the m1 gpu" (author has a very negative opinions about hacker news, read if you like by clicking the link https://asahilinux.org/2022/11/tales-of-the-m1-gpu/ https://asahilinux.org/2022/11/tales-of-the-m1-gpu/) Is it universal? We'll see in coming years.

eru 2y ago
Alas, that link just gets you a rant about politics, if you click on it directly. Copy-and-pasting works.
- olivermuty 2y ago
  "Rant about politics", haha. Or as other people like to call it: "A real concern described in an apt manner". I have observed these inflammatory sub-graphs of comments myself and have thought to myself that this must be a huge growing grounds for unmoderated and unwanted behaviour because it more or less becomes invisible once flagged enough.
  - aoieu 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - thrance 2y ago
      There are obvious differences between criticism and harassment. Let's not act like we don't know why the asahi linux team is getting death threats, and maybe try to improve the situation.
      - aoieu 2y ago
        Death threats were being posted on HN? I hope they were swiftly removed if so.
        thrance 2y ago
        You should probably read the asahi linux post.
        aoieu 2y ago
        Which one? I just browsed through a few and didn't see any death threats.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - psychoslave 2y ago
        I was totally unaware of these situation. I heard about the distro before and its focus on apple laptop, and even use of rust to code drivers, but that's it. Why would anyone be upset with people sharing FLOW?
    - logicprog 2y ago
      > I've not read any of these comments but it sounds like the author of that message is somewhat peeved at the fact he can't control the conversation of others. Are you fucking serious right now? Did you actually read what they said? Want is wrong with you? They're not "peeved" about "not being able to control the conversations of others", they're pointing out that because of Hacker News's lax and irresponsible moderation and disturbing overlap with much worse communities, it is a breeding ground for endless hate and harassment that can, and has, driven people to suicide on other occasions. That's way more serious and understandable, and playing that down as just someone being "anti free speech" as being part of the problem.
      - aoieu 2y ago
        That sounds highly unlikely given the strict moderation on this site. So unless I see any evidence of it, I'll continue to assume otherwise. From what I can gather after looking at previous posts on Asahi Linux, as another commenter suggested, the author of that message is furious that some HN users were talking about a cartoon character alter ego that he uses to make video streams. Seems to me like he's overreacting a bit.
        logicprog 2y ago
        The letter Martin wrote literally explains why you wouldn't be able to see such comment threads, as a result of the way HN's moderation works. Did you bother to read it? Also, don't even start with the whole "Asahi Lina = Hector Martin" thing. You're literally echoing a Kiwi Farms thing and wondering why people accuse HN of having an overlap with that site?
        aoieu 2y ago
        I browsed the comments of previous Asahi Linux posts with "show dead" switched on and that's all I could find. I couldn't care less if he presents himself as a cartoon character on his video streams, I only mention it because that's what the flagged comments on those posts were arguing about. Perhaps you could link the comment threads that you believe is evidence of what he's saying in that message?
  - erdii 2y ago
    In this specific case complaining about "politics" gets the sour by-taste of enabling (or at least not condoning) harrasment to the point of single folks taking their own lifes over it. Why?! Even if you're not sure what to think about the queer movement; even if you have already made up your mind about the queer movement and oppose their ideas or some of them; I refuse to believe that any single person would not want to stop someone from bullying someone else into their own suicide! hastily jotted rant for the folks who'd like to complain about "politics" from creeping into every discussion everywhere: It's really sad to see so many folks disconnecting and immediately dismissing whole groups of other folks as soon as they start complaining about an issue they have because of "politics". :( I get that you don't want to get involved in shit flinging shows and that its tedious to figure out who's in the right and who's in the wrong. Especially because there are never clear answers. If you feel like this and then proceed to complain about 'politics' creeping everywhere, please beware of this: Pretending to be apolitical doesn't work most of the time, as politics is basically another word for "acting (or deliberately not-acting) in some kind of public sphere" which you all do, and when the "policitics" have arrived at a topic, then they'll stay there at least in that specific case you are witnessing! You just are part of a hyperconnected and confusing world with a lot of conflict, wether you like it or not. Pretending to be apolitical also serves the upholding of whatever status quo is currently in place because anything that has even a slight chance of changing anything is inherently a political topic. Please don't turn your heads on "political" topics or, at least, don't complain about it in that way as it mostly enables unjust behaviour to continue. It doesn't even matter if it's the person who brought up the "political" stuff who is acting unjust or the folks they're complaining about). In both cases it's probably better to either avoid commenting at all or to convey your critical thoughts to that "political" conversation.
    - pjc50 2y ago
      > I refuse to believe that any single person would not want to stop someone from bullying someone else into their own suicide! There are plenty of people who do want the freedom to say exactly what they choose, including a lengthy period of directed harassment, and shrug their shoulders if someone commits suicide over it. There's not much that can be done other than ban them from civilized spaces.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > Or as other people like to call it: "A real concern described in an apt manner". Oh please. Every activist for every marginal issue says the same thing. Doesn't make it true.
- aniviacat 2y ago
  I can't find a rant in the link. Was the link changed or did I overlook something?
  - jeroenhd 2y ago
    The author of the website details their issue with the way HN does moderation (which I can't say I disagree with, especially after HN intentionally disabled referrer headers for websites that take issue with HN). This only shows up if HN is in the referer URL. I wouldn't call it a rant, but rather a polite request for HN policy to change.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
      > I wouldn't call it a rant, but rather a polite request for HN policy to change. Which is made by blocking people with no ability to do anything about it.
      - mcronce 2y ago
        What? All you need to do is resubmit the request without a Referer header. For me, using Firefox, this meant clicking in the address bar, changing nothing, and hitting enter. That's hardly "no ability to do anything about it".
        yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
        I mean people with no ability to alter HN moderation policy. Consider it like this: 1. I think, "oh, that looks relevant, let me open that link". 2. I get a screenful of objections to HN moderation. 3. I shrug and close the tab. Since I'm just a normal user who can't change HN moderation, the outcome is that HN doesn't change but I walk away with a worse opinion of the Asahi Linux folks.
        lanstin 2y ago
        Weird: HN is supposed to be technical but the people behind Asahi Linux have proven themselves to be technical wizards; meanwhile HN seems more interested in money and pseudo-libertarian politics than transformitive technical excellence. But such is our age.
- bcaltcx 2y ago
  [flagged]
KallDrexx 2y ago
Maybe I'm reading something wrong but the discussion this HN posting is about sounds very much about trying to make a Linux subsystem and API in Rust, so that Rust's type system can enforce conformance to safety mechanisms via its abstraction. That's fundamentally different and harder than a driver being written in rust that uses the Linux's subsystems C APIs. I can see a lot of drivers taking on the complexity tax of being written in Rust easily. The complexity tax on writing a whole subsystem in Rust seems like an exponentially harder problem.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  You could just write rust code that calls the C APIs, and that would probably avoid a lot of discussions like the one in the article. But making good wrappers would make development of downstream components even easier. As the opponents in the discussion said: there's about 50 filesystem drivers. If you make the interface better that's a boon for every file system (well, every file system that uses rust, but it doesn't take many to make the effort pay off). You pay the complexity tax once for the interface, and get complexity benefits in every component that uses the interface. We would have the same discussions about better C APIs, if only C was expressive enough to allow good abstractions.
nicce 2y ago
> author has a very negative opinions about hacker news I am not sure if author (Asahi Lina) has, but the project lead Hector Martin definitely has.
- kweefee 2y ago
  Same person.
  - nicce 2y ago
    Just speculation.
josephcsible 2y ago
Warning: Don't click that link. Copy and paste the URL instead. That site serves only verbal abuse and harassment to people that it detects are HN users.

by mnau 2y ago

eru 2y ago

Alas, that link just gets you a rant about politics, if you click on it directly. Copy-and-pasting works.

olivermuty 2y ago
"Rant about politics", haha. Or as other people like to call it: "A real concern described in an apt manner". I have observed these inflammatory sub-graphs of comments myself and have thought to myself that this must be a huge growing grounds for unmoderated and unwanted behaviour because it more or less becomes invisible once flagged enough.
- aoieu 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - thrance 2y ago
    There are obvious differences between criticism and harassment. Let's not act like we don't know why the asahi linux team is getting death threats, and maybe try to improve the situation.
    - aoieu 2y ago
      Death threats were being posted on HN? I hope they were swiftly removed if so.
      - thrance 2y ago
        You should probably read the asahi linux post.
        aoieu 2y ago
        Which one? I just browsed through a few and didn't see any death threats.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - psychoslave 2y ago
      I was totally unaware of these situation. I heard about the distro before and its focus on apple laptop, and even use of rust to code drivers, but that's it. Why would anyone be upset with people sharing FLOW?
  - logicprog 2y ago
    > I've not read any of these comments but it sounds like the author of that message is somewhat peeved at the fact he can't control the conversation of others. Are you fucking serious right now? Did you actually read what they said? Want is wrong with you? They're not "peeved" about "not being able to control the conversations of others", they're pointing out that because of Hacker News's lax and irresponsible moderation and disturbing overlap with much worse communities, it is a breeding ground for endless hate and harassment that can, and has, driven people to suicide on other occasions. That's way more serious and understandable, and playing that down as just someone being "anti free speech" as being part of the problem.
    - aoieu 2y ago
      That sounds highly unlikely given the strict moderation on this site. So unless I see any evidence of it, I'll continue to assume otherwise. From what I can gather after looking at previous posts on Asahi Linux, as another commenter suggested, the author of that message is furious that some HN users were talking about a cartoon character alter ego that he uses to make video streams. Seems to me like he's overreacting a bit.
      - logicprog 2y ago
        The letter Martin wrote literally explains why you wouldn't be able to see such comment threads, as a result of the way HN's moderation works. Did you bother to read it? Also, don't even start with the whole "Asahi Lina = Hector Martin" thing. You're literally echoing a Kiwi Farms thing and wondering why people accuse HN of having an overlap with that site?
        aoieu 2y ago
        I browsed the comments of previous Asahi Linux posts with "show dead" switched on and that's all I could find. I couldn't care less if he presents himself as a cartoon character on his video streams, I only mention it because that's what the flagged comments on those posts were arguing about. Perhaps you could link the comment threads that you believe is evidence of what he's saying in that message?
- erdii 2y ago
  In this specific case complaining about "politics" gets the sour by-taste of enabling (or at least not condoning) harrasment to the point of single folks taking their own lifes over it. Why?! Even if you're not sure what to think about the queer movement; even if you have already made up your mind about the queer movement and oppose their ideas or some of them; I refuse to believe that any single person would not want to stop someone from bullying someone else into their own suicide! hastily jotted rant for the folks who'd like to complain about "politics" from creeping into every discussion everywhere: It's really sad to see so many folks disconnecting and immediately dismissing whole groups of other folks as soon as they start complaining about an issue they have because of "politics". :( I get that you don't want to get involved in shit flinging shows and that its tedious to figure out who's in the right and who's in the wrong. Especially because there are never clear answers. If you feel like this and then proceed to complain about 'politics' creeping everywhere, please beware of this: Pretending to be apolitical doesn't work most of the time, as politics is basically another word for "acting (or deliberately not-acting) in some kind of public sphere" which you all do, and when the "policitics" have arrived at a topic, then they'll stay there at least in that specific case you are witnessing! You just are part of a hyperconnected and confusing world with a lot of conflict, wether you like it or not. Pretending to be apolitical also serves the upholding of whatever status quo is currently in place because anything that has even a slight chance of changing anything is inherently a political topic. Please don't turn your heads on "political" topics or, at least, don't complain about it in that way as it mostly enables unjust behaviour to continue. It doesn't even matter if it's the person who brought up the "political" stuff who is acting unjust or the folks they're complaining about). In both cases it's probably better to either avoid commenting at all or to convey your critical thoughts to that "political" conversation.
  - pjc50 2y ago
    > I refuse to believe that any single person would not want to stop someone from bullying someone else into their own suicide! There are plenty of people who do want the freedom to say exactly what they choose, including a lengthy period of directed harassment, and shrug their shoulders if someone commits suicide over it. There's not much that can be done other than ban them from civilized spaces.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > Or as other people like to call it: "A real concern described in an apt manner". Oh please. Every activist for every marginal issue says the same thing. Doesn't make it true.
aniviacat 2y ago
I can't find a rant in the link. Was the link changed or did I overlook something?
- jeroenhd 2y ago
  The author of the website details their issue with the way HN does moderation (which I can't say I disagree with, especially after HN intentionally disabled referrer headers for websites that take issue with HN). This only shows up if HN is in the referer URL. I wouldn't call it a rant, but rather a polite request for HN policy to change.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
    > I wouldn't call it a rant, but rather a polite request for HN policy to change. Which is made by blocking people with no ability to do anything about it.
    - mcronce 2y ago
      What? All you need to do is resubmit the request without a Referer header. For me, using Firefox, this meant clicking in the address bar, changing nothing, and hitting enter. That's hardly "no ability to do anything about it".
      - yjftsjthsd-h 2y ago
        I mean people with no ability to alter HN moderation policy. Consider it like this: 1. I think, "oh, that looks relevant, let me open that link". 2. I get a screenful of objections to HN moderation. 3. I shrug and close the tab. Since I'm just a normal user who can't change HN moderation, the outcome is that HN doesn't change but I walk away with a worse opinion of the Asahi Linux folks.
        lanstin 2y ago
        Weird: HN is supposed to be technical but the people behind Asahi Linux have proven themselves to be technical wizards; meanwhile HN seems more interested in money and pseudo-libertarian politics than transformitive technical excellence. But such is our age.
bcaltcx 2y ago
[flagged]

KallDrexx 2y ago

Maybe I'm reading something wrong but the discussion this HN posting is about sounds very much about trying to make a Linux subsystem and API in Rust, so that Rust's type system can enforce conformance to safety mechanisms via its abstraction. That's fundamentally different and harder than a driver being written in rust that uses the Linux's subsystems C APIs. I can see a lot of drivers taking on the complexity tax of being written in Rust easily. The complexity tax on writing a whole subsystem in Rust seems like an exponentially harder problem.

wongarsu 2y ago
You could just write rust code that calls the C APIs, and that would probably avoid a lot of discussions like the one in the article. But making good wrappers would make development of downstream components even easier. As the opponents in the discussion said: there's about 50 filesystem drivers. If you make the interface better that's a boon for every file system (well, every file system that uses rust, but it doesn't take many to make the effort pay off). You pay the complexity tax once for the interface, and get complexity benefits in every component that uses the interface. We would have the same discussions about better C APIs, if only C was expressive enough to allow good abstractions.

nicce 2y ago

> author has a very negative opinions about hacker news I am not sure if author (Asahi Lina) has, but the project lead Hector Martin definitely has.

kweefee 2y ago
Same person.
- nicce 2y ago
  Just speculation.

josephcsible 2y ago

Warning: Don't click that link. Copy and paste the URL instead. That site serves only verbal abuse and harassment to people that it detects are HN users.