10 ms·

What annoys me, is when companies expect _you_ to be loyal, when they would get rid of you in a heartbeat. For the vast majority of employment situations, it i

by JR1427 2y ago

What annoys me, is when companies expect _you_ to be loyal, when they would get rid of you in a heartbeat. For the vast majority of employment situations, it is simply a transaction. There needn't be any talk of "loyalty", which in my mind is usually just manipulation.

suriya-ganesh 2y ago
Employment are an adversarial relationship of convenience Given the chance, both parties would expect the other party be loyal while they optimize for something better than what they have.
- Culonavirus 2y ago
  Yea doesn't sound dysfunctional at all... lol. Apply that for marriage for example: > Given the chance, both parties would expect the other party be loyal while they optimize for something better than what they have. Peachy.
  - rkachowski 2y ago
    The difference between employment relationships and marriage is rather large.
    - silverquiet 2y ago
      The divorce rate would suggest it isn't that large.
      - nkrisc 2y ago
        Historically, marriages often were almost transactional arrangements of convenience.
        silverquiet 2y ago
        I'd say that also reflects my experience with dating.
    - ajot 2y ago
      You should be looking at employment as a contract, and marriage (and other personal relationships) as a covenant. If you apply tit-for-tat with your spouse, at least one of you will end dissatisfied and hurt.
  - _w1tm 2y ago
    Who would want to be married with their company? You are finding dysfunction where there is none. Imagine expecting the employee or company to have the other party for better or for worse, till death do them apart. Talk about dysfunction!
    - Culonavirus 2y ago
      But I am talking about loyalty. Marriage was just an example that points out the absurd nature of the "loyalty" the user described. You can't say "well, I am loyal as long as I don't have any other options"... that's not how loyalty works.
  - kombookcha 2y ago
    Damn that's crazy, almost like they're completely different and applying the features of one to the other is apples and oranges. ;)
- galdosdi 2y ago
  No, not at all. You have missed the mark completely here. This is totally culturally dependent. In a culture where this is expected, this is indeed what will happen. If you've only ever lived in such a culture then, yeah, you might get the mistaken idea this is an intrinsic human universal truth. But cultural norms are really powerful and can absolutely overcome natural game theory / self interest dynamics. If everyone you know would think less of you after you quit a job when it is known that employers are loyal, you won't do it. Same goes for the reverse.
- JohnFen 2y ago
  An employment arrangement is a business deal, nothing more and nothing less. Whether or not it's adversarial depends on the nature of the deal and the entities involved. The most common error I see in employment is the employees not understanding this basic truth. That leads to situations such as people thinking that an employer is doing them a favor in some way by hiring them, which leads to people giving up some of their power. The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any.
varjag 2y ago
With change in leadership to GenXers and millennials I don't think it's an expectation really.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
  Can confirm. I myself am older and, admittedly, came into the job market as a very naive individual. But over the years I have watched the younger cohort and I am actually kinda impressed with the realistic ronin-like attitude. It is a lot more transactional for a reason; companies themselves have mostly destroyed it. If anything, it is a perverse expression of US 'fuck you, got mine' system.
  - kiviuq 2y ago
    There is too much morally infused overinterpretation of Capitalism going on. Owners and workers have diametrically opposite interests which no law or moral judgment could put aside. What one party perceives as a fair wage is nothing but profit dilution for the other side. Remember, the only purpose of a business is - given money - to make more money. If you can't help them with that, either by being dirt cheap or have some marketable skill, you're literally useless and part of the Capitalist overpopulation... a class people who serve no use in the accumulation process.
    - smeej 2y ago
      I think this is true of businesses that outgrow their local economies. And since that's what most people see in their feeds and interact with every day, that's how they expect every company to function. When every company that has any mind share is beholden to a bunch of external shareholders, it's no wonder "profit as much as possible" is the only reason for being anyone thinks of. But it didn't used to be this way and it doesn't have to be this way. It's still possible for people to do well by doing good, providing, for example, quality housing at non-exploitative prices, or reliable and safe plumbing to handle their neighbors' water and sewer needs. And it still is being done. Most of us just spend so much of our time online that we only ever hear about the companies with social media/marketing teams, so we get used to that way of thinking.
cheema33 2y ago
> What annoys me, is when companies expect _you_ to be loyal, when they would get rid of you in a heartbeat. Reality is that neither has to be loyal. Employees leave all the time for better pay/perks etc. You are judging employers too harshly in this respect.
- JR1427 2y ago
  Yes, I know that neither has to be loyal. But I know of examples where a manager has said things like "you need to decide if you are loyal to the company" etc. I really dislike this.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    People lie all the time. For marketing, to be polite, for worse reasons. It’s in everyone’s best interest to stay on their toes and evaluate others’ motivations before accepting words at face value.
  - amanaplanacanal 2y ago
    I would want to ask the manager how the company is going to be loyal to me. I’m curious what they would say.
    - cpach 2y ago
      Indeed. And how would the manager make a guarantee for it?
  - JohnFen 2y ago
    If a manager ever said that to me, I'd immediately start planning my exit. I don't want to work for anyone who engages in that level of emotional manipulation.
- harimau777 2y ago
  A complicating factor is that it is much easier for corporations to punish employees for being disloyal than for employees to punish corporations for disloyalty. I.e. if your resume shows too much job hopping then that can hurt your ability to get a new job. However, a corporation is not nearly a badly hurt by repeatedly overhiring and laying off employees.

by JR1427 2y ago

suriya-ganesh 2y ago

Employment are an adversarial relationship of convenience Given the chance, both parties would expect the other party be loyal while they optimize for something better than what they have.

Culonavirus 2y ago
Yea doesn't sound dysfunctional at all... lol. Apply that for marriage for example: > Given the chance, both parties would expect the other party be loyal while they optimize for something better than what they have. Peachy.
- rkachowski 2y ago
  The difference between employment relationships and marriage is rather large.
  - silverquiet 2y ago
    The divorce rate would suggest it isn't that large.
    - nkrisc 2y ago
      Historically, marriages often were almost transactional arrangements of convenience.
      - silverquiet 2y ago
        I'd say that also reflects my experience with dating.
  - ajot 2y ago
    You should be looking at employment as a contract, and marriage (and other personal relationships) as a covenant. If you apply tit-for-tat with your spouse, at least one of you will end dissatisfied and hurt.
- _w1tm 2y ago
  Who would want to be married with their company? You are finding dysfunction where there is none. Imagine expecting the employee or company to have the other party for better or for worse, till death do them apart. Talk about dysfunction!
  - Culonavirus 2y ago
    But I am talking about loyalty. Marriage was just an example that points out the absurd nature of the "loyalty" the user described. You can't say "well, I am loyal as long as I don't have any other options"... that's not how loyalty works.
- kombookcha 2y ago
  Damn that's crazy, almost like they're completely different and applying the features of one to the other is apples and oranges. ;)
galdosdi 2y ago
No, not at all. You have missed the mark completely here. This is totally culturally dependent. In a culture where this is expected, this is indeed what will happen. If you've only ever lived in such a culture then, yeah, you might get the mistaken idea this is an intrinsic human universal truth. But cultural norms are really powerful and can absolutely overcome natural game theory / self interest dynamics. If everyone you know would think less of you after you quit a job when it is known that employers are loyal, you won't do it. Same goes for the reverse.
JohnFen 2y ago
An employment arrangement is a business deal, nothing more and nothing less. Whether or not it's adversarial depends on the nature of the deal and the entities involved. The most common error I see in employment is the employees not understanding this basic truth. That leads to situations such as people thinking that an employer is doing them a favor in some way by hiring them, which leads to people giving up some of their power. The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don't have any.

varjag 2y ago

With change in leadership to GenXers and millennials I don't think it's an expectation really.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
Can confirm. I myself am older and, admittedly, came into the job market as a very naive individual. But over the years I have watched the younger cohort and I am actually kinda impressed with the realistic ronin-like attitude. It is a lot more transactional for a reason; companies themselves have mostly destroyed it. If anything, it is a perverse expression of US 'fuck you, got mine' system.
- kiviuq 2y ago
  There is too much morally infused overinterpretation of Capitalism going on. Owners and workers have diametrically opposite interests which no law or moral judgment could put aside. What one party perceives as a fair wage is nothing but profit dilution for the other side. Remember, the only purpose of a business is - given money - to make more money. If you can't help them with that, either by being dirt cheap or have some marketable skill, you're literally useless and part of the Capitalist overpopulation... a class people who serve no use in the accumulation process.
  - smeej 2y ago
    I think this is true of businesses that outgrow their local economies. And since that's what most people see in their feeds and interact with every day, that's how they expect every company to function. When every company that has any mind share is beholden to a bunch of external shareholders, it's no wonder "profit as much as possible" is the only reason for being anyone thinks of. But it didn't used to be this way and it doesn't have to be this way. It's still possible for people to do well by doing good, providing, for example, quality housing at non-exploitative prices, or reliable and safe plumbing to handle their neighbors' water and sewer needs. And it still is being done. Most of us just spend so much of our time online that we only ever hear about the companies with social media/marketing teams, so we get used to that way of thinking.

cheema33 2y ago

> What annoys me, is when companies expect _you_ to be loyal, when they would get rid of you in a heartbeat. Reality is that neither has to be loyal. Employees leave all the time for better pay/perks etc. You are judging employers too harshly in this respect.

JR1427 2y ago
Yes, I know that neither has to be loyal. But I know of examples where a manager has said things like "you need to decide if you are loyal to the company" etc. I really dislike this.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  People lie all the time. For marketing, to be polite, for worse reasons. It’s in everyone’s best interest to stay on their toes and evaluate others’ motivations before accepting words at face value.
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  I would want to ask the manager how the company is going to be loyal to me. I’m curious what they would say.
  - cpach 2y ago
    Indeed. And how would the manager make a guarantee for it?
- JohnFen 2y ago
  If a manager ever said that to me, I'd immediately start planning my exit. I don't want to work for anyone who engages in that level of emotional manipulation.
harimau777 2y ago
A complicating factor is that it is much easier for corporations to punish employees for being disloyal than for employees to punish corporations for disloyalty. I.e. if your resume shows too much job hopping then that can hurt your ability to get a new job. However, a corporation is not nearly a badly hurt by repeatedly overhiring and laying off employees.