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Women don't study math to become teachers: if they want to become teachers, they can study literature, language, history, chemistry, ... If they study math is b
by cauch 2y ago
Women don't study math to become teachers: if they want to become teachers, they can study literature, language, history, chemistry, ... If they study math is because they like math.
I strongly suspect that the large majority starts in math with not specific plan.
Then, yes, they move away from academia. But it is an error to jump on the conclusion that it is because they wanted to do teaching and not because they saw how academia is for women in math and realized it's not worth the effort.
If indeed the fact that you can do teaching after math studies makes math a people-oriented job, then every studies are people-oriented, because you can always teach any field.
But that's not even the point. I'm not saying math is not people-oriented, I'm saying math is AS people-oriented AS computer science: if you want a people-oriented job, you can have one by doing math or by doing computer science, if you want a non-people-oriented job, you can have one by doing math or by doing computer science.
You are pretending that software developer is intrinsically not-people-oriented. This is incorrect: you need to work in team, both with other software engineers and other totally different teams, you need to build tools FOR other people, listen to them to know what they need and listen to them when they have complains or difficulties. The whole job is "how can I solve OTHER PEOPLE'S PROBLEMS by being the proxy between them and the computer machine instructions". How is that not people-oriented?
Again, there is this very very strange conception that software developer is somehow an extra-terrestrial activity. It feels like software developers have no idea of what other people do. Do you really think that an accountant that spend their whole career working for a specific internal department will meet and interact with more people than what a software developer can potentially? Or the people working in policy? Or the people working in operation and just managing the logistic? What about the cleaners? Is that a people-oriented job? I'm sure they create a lot of interesting relationship when they clean the office when everyone has left. What about a lab technician? What about a restaurant cook? Or an Amazon warehouse worker? (please, don't react to one of these examples, if you don't like one of them, feel free to just swap it to one of the thousand other examples where the employee will have less opportunity to interact with other humans than a software developer)
Sure, not every accountant job does not involve the same level of people interaction, and similarly, there are software development jobs where the dev can go away with not interacting much.
And sure, some developers, who are not people-oriented, find ways to make it work with them avoiding the people-aspect of their work. They usually need a manager to do this aspect of their job for them, and then complain that their manager is useless.
But again, it is not intrinsic to the work of software development. Software development is not a not-people-oriented job. Some people want it to be, they are somehow proud to be not-people-oriented (they are so not-people-oriented that it is very important for them to socially boast about how they are not-people-oriented), and they have big difficulties to admit that their job is not intrinsically not-people-oriented, and because of that, it is a fake image and a distorted reputation (with all the problem it causes: developers that keep moaning when they need to do people oriented tasks as if they are special and should not do it while it totally makes sense that it is part of their role).
- Manuel_D 2y ago> The whole job is "how can I solve OTHER PEOPLE'S PROBLEMS by being the proxy between them and the computer machine instructions". How is that not people-oriented? It is people oriented, to a degree. But it's less people oriented than solving other people's problems by engaging them directly, without being a proxy between the user and a machine. To say that software development is less people oriented than being a math teacher isn't saying the former has zero personal interaction or nothing about it is people oriented. It's just less people oriented than most other jobs.
- cauch 2y agoI think you still don't get my point. Indeed today there is a lot of devs that don't engage directly with people. But my point is that "not engaging directly" IS A CHOICE of these individuals, not a fundamental characteristic of the role. And that in fact the role itself requires more engagement than what a lot of devs think they should have. Please stop reducing "math" to "math teachers". Do you even know that teaching math does not require having enrolled in a math major at university? Any STEM degree will do (and sometimes not even STEM). Also, you can also teach computer science (or worse, if you want to teach math, getting a degree in computer science is as much an option as getting one in math). If it's your criteria, then again, computer science is as people-oriented as math, because people doing computer science can become teacher too. > But it's less people oriented than solving other people's problems by engaging them directly But, ideally, devs SHOULD engage directly. They don't do it by choice, and it makes the product of their work LESS GOOD. It also creates strange situation where you need plenty of manager and very constraining processes such as scrum or other planned processes where the devs have to be explained what the people need because they devs are not able to simply ask themselves. Computer science is more people-oriented than math, in very large portion of the user cases, it works better when the dev engages directly with the people they work for, while for math, people who do math for a living, the majority of the roles involves working on research and development with a very much smaller window of potential interaction with people of varied backgrounds. > It's just less people oriented than most other jobs. No, it is not. Intrinsically, the role of software development has way more elements that require interacting with people than a lot of other jobs. In practice, computer science has cultivated a subculture, in which they started painting the picture of the asocial nerd working in their mancave and glorifying this aspect. The consequence is that women are less interested in computer science not because computer science is intrinsically not for them, but because the stupid mentality that is cultivated by to many people in this field. The consequence is that socially inept people will be more interested in computer science because they see it as a good fit for them. But, again, when you look at it, on paper, there is absolutely no reason to say that computer science is intrinsically a good fit for socially inept people. If they want a brainy work where they can beaver down on their own little universe without interacting with people, math is 100x more suitable for them. Computer science requires understanding what the client want, and the client surface is big and their background is very varied, which means the dev need social skill to interact with them.