8 ms·

These dark patterns are also pervasive across all of American society in general. A common one that is spread across many aspects of American society is the hid

These dark patterns are also pervasive across all of American society in general. A common one that is spread across many aspects of American society is the hiding of the full cost of something, e.g., flights, apartment leases, home purchases, car purchases, internet contracts, etc. where there are all kinds of last moment cost ad-ons. That may look like extra monthly fees on apartment leases beyond the price that was advertised, air travel that obscures things like the baggage charges, internet service that requires monthly equipment rental and various fees, etc. You know it’s all deceptive and fraudulent just by virtue of that they hide it, but also that the companies usually vehemently resist being transparent about the coerced extraction of money, not really all that different than theft. When someone holds a gun to your head you also have a choice to not hand over your money.

lynx23 2y ago
Genuinely interested, is this perhaps a result of the practice of writing prices without VAT? As a european, I always felt this has a fraudulent touch.
- jaza 2y ago
  Ditto as an Australian. To be fair, we have a valid historical reason for prices down here always including tax - GST (our name for VAT / sales tax) was only introduced in 2000, and before that there was never any tax involved at point of sale - so it would have been too big a cultural change for "the marked price" to suddenly not be "the exact price that you pay". (Tipping is also rare here, same as in most of Europe.) So, yeah, the American way of "marked price plus tax plus tips" seems like egregious fraud to us too. Although, over the past decade or so, "credit / debit card surcharge" fees (generally of 1-2%, but sometimes much more) - which aren't included in the marked price - have become pervasive here. And they're often charged (both online and in-store) when there is no alternative form of payment available (either a really lousy alternative - e.g. "pay by bank transfer, but we won't give you the product until the transfer has cleared, which may take up to 3 business days" - or literally no alternative at all, which is supposed to be illegal, but plenty of businesses seem to get away with it). But I guess it's a good sign, that quite a lot of people here complain loudly about such fees - maybe in the USA, the vast majority just resign themselves to it being yet one more gotcha creeping into everyday payments.
Hikikomori 2y ago
As an European I've never really had any of those problems. Is committing fraud part of the American dream?
- hifromwork 2y ago
  This is a bit too harsh evaluation, IMO. I visited USA a few times, and I think people there are just used to not knowing exactly how much they'll pay. I am a bit stingy with money (some would say miserly), so when at home I usually count how much I'll pay before proceeding to checkout. This is impossible in the US: * even something as mundane as a grocery shopping involves taxes (different in every state), not included in the price displayed in the store. * In restaurants it's mandatory tipping * for food delivery it's tipping, delivery fees, marketplace fee and more * for tourists it's "yes the trip costs just $15, but see we forgot to mention that to actually see something you need to buy entrance ticket for another $15" * etc Only the last one I would call fraud, but nobody except me was angry so I think it's just the way it is.
  - nottorp 2y ago
    It's all fraud. They just have Stockholm syndrome across the pond :)
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      AFAIK, the procedure for counting taxes is mandated by law. So the first one just can not be fraud. (And yeah, lobbyists in my country tried to import that law several time claiming it provides better transparency.)
      - nottorp 2y ago
        If the price displayed is not the price i'm paying it's fraud. Even if it's legal.
        marcosdumay 2y ago
lotsofpulp 2y ago
California legislators just worked overtime to pass a law allowing restaurants to not include all fees in their menu prices.
- hn_acker 2y ago
  Not a Californian, but which bill number is it? SB 1524 seems to do the opposite: service fees are allowed (terrible, but a separate issue), and non-tax fees have to be rolled into menu prices [1]. [1] https://sf.eater.com/2024/7/1/24189966/california-restaurant-service-fees-sb-1524-law https://sf.eater.com/2024/7/1/24189966/california-restaurant...
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    Your link says SB1524 does exactly what I wrote in my post. SB478 banned junk fees, including at restaurants, in Oct 2023, and then SB1524 a week ago allowed restaurants to charge junk fees. > SB 1524 was a last-minute bid by lawmakers to extract restaurants from the junk fee ban known as Senate Bill 478, which Newsom approved in October 2023. There is no reason that a restaurant menu should have a mandatory charge on everything shown separately from the prices for the food, other than for restaurants to be able to make prices seem lower than they are.
    - hn_acker 2y ago
      Oops, you're completely right. I retract my previous comment. I not only copied the wrong article (got the "rolling" part from https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-06-25/restaurants-charge-service-fees-an-emergency-measure-passes-unanimously https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-06-25/restaurants-ch...) but also misidentified which bill would have required rolling.

lynx23 2y ago

Genuinely interested, is this perhaps a result of the practice of writing prices without VAT? As a european, I always felt this has a fraudulent touch.

jaza 2y ago
Ditto as an Australian. To be fair, we have a valid historical reason for prices down here always including tax - GST (our name for VAT / sales tax) was only introduced in 2000, and before that there was never any tax involved at point of sale - so it would have been too big a cultural change for "the marked price" to suddenly not be "the exact price that you pay". (Tipping is also rare here, same as in most of Europe.) So, yeah, the American way of "marked price plus tax plus tips" seems like egregious fraud to us too. Although, over the past decade or so, "credit / debit card surcharge" fees (generally of 1-2%, but sometimes much more) - which aren't included in the marked price - have become pervasive here. And they're often charged (both online and in-store) when there is no alternative form of payment available (either a really lousy alternative - e.g. "pay by bank transfer, but we won't give you the product until the transfer has cleared, which may take up to 3 business days" - or literally no alternative at all, which is supposed to be illegal, but plenty of businesses seem to get away with it). But I guess it's a good sign, that quite a lot of people here complain loudly about such fees - maybe in the USA, the vast majority just resign themselves to it being yet one more gotcha creeping into everyday payments.

Hikikomori 2y ago

As an European I've never really had any of those problems. Is committing fraud part of the American dream?

hifromwork 2y ago
This is a bit too harsh evaluation, IMO. I visited USA a few times, and I think people there are just used to not knowing exactly how much they'll pay. I am a bit stingy with money (some would say miserly), so when at home I usually count how much I'll pay before proceeding to checkout. This is impossible in the US: * even something as mundane as a grocery shopping involves taxes (different in every state), not included in the price displayed in the store. * In restaurants it's mandatory tipping * for food delivery it's tipping, delivery fees, marketplace fee and more * for tourists it's "yes the trip costs just $15, but see we forgot to mention that to actually see something you need to buy entrance ticket for another $15" * etc Only the last one I would call fraud, but nobody except me was angry so I think it's just the way it is.
- nottorp 2y ago
  It's all fraud. They just have Stockholm syndrome across the pond :)
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    AFAIK, the procedure for counting taxes is mandated by law. So the first one just can not be fraud. (And yeah, lobbyists in my country tried to import that law several time claiming it provides better transparency.)
    - nottorp 2y ago
      If the price displayed is not the price i'm paying it's fraud. Even if it's legal.
      - marcosdumay 2y ago

lotsofpulp 2y ago

California legislators just worked overtime to pass a law allowing restaurants to not include all fees in their menu prices.

hn_acker 2y ago
Not a Californian, but which bill number is it? SB 1524 seems to do the opposite: service fees are allowed (terrible, but a separate issue), and non-tax fees have to be rolled into menu prices [1]. [1] https://sf.eater.com/2024/7/1/24189966/california-restaurant-service-fees-sb-1524-law https://sf.eater.com/2024/7/1/24189966/california-restaurant...
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Your link says SB1524 does exactly what I wrote in my post. SB478 banned junk fees, including at restaurants, in Oct 2023, and then SB1524 a week ago allowed restaurants to charge junk fees. > SB 1524 was a last-minute bid by lawmakers to extract restaurants from the junk fee ban known as Senate Bill 478, which Newsom approved in October 2023. There is no reason that a restaurant menu should have a mandatory charge on everything shown separately from the prices for the food, other than for restaurants to be able to make prices seem lower than they are.
  - hn_acker 2y ago
    Oops, you're completely right. I retract my previous comment. I not only copied the wrong article (got the "rolling" part from https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-06-25/restaurants-charge-service-fees-an-emergency-measure-passes-unanimously https://www.latimes.com/food/story/2024-06-25/restaurants-ch...) but also misidentified which bill would have required rolling.