4 ms·

They're the same, just ecosystems. I "grew up" on vim, and I've used nvim in recent times, and there's no substantial difference imo. Mainly it's how they get s

by qup 2y ago

They're the same, just ecosystems. I "grew up" on vim, and I've used nvim in recent times, and there's no substantial difference imo. Mainly it's how they get setup, not how they get used. Emacs, on the other hand... Just kidding, I would never use that foul operating system.

rstuart4133 2y ago
> They're the same, just ecosystems. I'm a long time vim user. I watched someone use neovim, started drooling over the plugins they were using and decided to give it a go. As I understood it neovim was born because Moolenaar didn't want to give up on vim's scripting language. It something you might like to replace. I don't know why he was so attached to it. When neovim made LUA it's scripting language it gave rise to all these plugins, which is what I was drooling over. Within about 15 minutes of using neovim I hit my first bug. Split screen diff's weren't rendering correctly. In fact they rendered so badly it was impossible to use. Then I hit a few more. That reminded me of one thing I am in awe of in Moolenaar. Vim is a big piece of software, yet I don't ever recall hitting one bug in the underlying engine. He was one mother of a programmer, truly a giant among us.
- wruza 2y ago
  What’s even worse, nvimers seems to ignore bugs that are impossible to miss. The first time I installed neovim, it: - couldn’t re-'columns' itself on window resize - couldn’t be used as an explorer’s “open with” action (due to nvim-qt/nvim argument forwarding nonsense) - another outstanding bug/non-feature that I don’t remember now, but it was just stupid. Okay, I thought, give it some time. I gave it some time every two years since 2018-ish. Guess what. And tbh, Lua, really? I mean, it’s better than vimscript, but having such opportunity and choosing Lua is just… no words. It wasn’t even unclear future, the whole point of neovim was making IDE out of it. This is a “typed lang with a rich ecosystem” class of task, not “embedded scripting with no batteries and barely working pm”. I bet that people who actually write plugins wish it was typescript or python multiple times a day.
  - siproprio 2y ago
    Lua is the correct choice. It’s not perfect, but there’s nothing better than it. It’s the fastest scripting language and it’s easy to embed it into the application. The ‘batteries’ can be found in `:h lua.txt`, they’ve grown significantly each release, and you can even use a package manager.
    - wruza 2y ago
      It's easy to start embedding it. Once you get to metatabled userdata with shared-upvalue methods and registry refs, you wish it was just python. The ‘batteries’ can be found in `:h lua.txt` https://neovim.io/doc/user/lua.html https://neovim.io/doc/user/lua.html Reinventing iteration, vim.NIL, empty dict, utf-8, etc. Sorry for the snark, but I'm not surprised in the slightest and have no other emotion for that. They could have that and a whole world of packages and tools out of the box by using virtually any language except Lua.
      - siproprio 2y ago
        do you have any other language in mind that can be embedded into the editor like lua? i remember that sublime text had python, but i don’t remember anything relevant from then.
        wruza 2y ago
        What do you mean by like Lua? Most scripting languages are embeddable. lang.exe and /usr/bin/lang are just cli frontends to lang dlls and do baseline embedding like `exit(luaL_dofile(L, argv[1]))`, which is one of Lua’s selling points until you start actually binding it to your runtime and this simplicity drowns in necessity of reinvention. I’ve embedded Perl, Python, Lua in real projects. Didn’t touch Node.js, but pretty sure it embeds as well as long as you’re happy to deal with C++. Judging by the experience with C++ modules for node, it’s not that bad, but not that trivial either. Python, js, ts are all fine candidates with massive mature ecosystems. Technically, all you do in embedding is: set up the interpreter, define some modules (or globals), these modules export objects or functions which are implemented in C via embedding API. Then you run scripts from strings or files. These scripts use these modules, e.g. vim .get_tab(3) .get_cur_window() .set(“filetype”, “sh”), or you can add metatable/class sugar on top of it. Nothing unique to Lua there.
- siproprio 2y ago
  Idk when was this, but i use nvim on the terminal and it is fine, feels faster than vim, even. And vim has bugs too, I have a list of nags that just aren’t going to be fixed on vim that were fixed on neovim. Imho both are just fine.
- qup 2y ago
  I owe that guy about 2 million keystrokes.
  - mejutoco 2y ago
    And he owes you a brand new escape key cap :)

by qup 2y ago

rstuart4133 2y ago

> They're the same, just ecosystems. I'm a long time vim user. I watched someone use neovim, started drooling over the plugins they were using and decided to give it a go. As I understood it neovim was born because Moolenaar didn't want to give up on vim's scripting language. It something you might like to replace. I don't know why he was so attached to it. When neovim made LUA it's scripting language it gave rise to all these plugins, which is what I was drooling over. Within about 15 minutes of using neovim I hit my first bug. Split screen diff's weren't rendering correctly. In fact they rendered so badly it was impossible to use. Then I hit a few more. That reminded me of one thing I am in awe of in Moolenaar. Vim is a big piece of software, yet I don't ever recall hitting one bug in the underlying engine. He was one mother of a programmer, truly a giant among us.

wruza 2y ago
What’s even worse, nvimers seems to ignore bugs that are impossible to miss. The first time I installed neovim, it: - couldn’t re-'columns' itself on window resize - couldn’t be used as an explorer’s “open with” action (due to nvim-qt/nvim argument forwarding nonsense) - another outstanding bug/non-feature that I don’t remember now, but it was just stupid. Okay, I thought, give it some time. I gave it some time every two years since 2018-ish. Guess what. And tbh, Lua, really? I mean, it’s better than vimscript, but having such opportunity and choosing Lua is just… no words. It wasn’t even unclear future, the whole point of neovim was making IDE out of it. This is a “typed lang with a rich ecosystem” class of task, not “embedded scripting with no batteries and barely working pm”. I bet that people who actually write plugins wish it was typescript or python multiple times a day.
- siproprio 2y ago
  Lua is the correct choice. It’s not perfect, but there’s nothing better than it. It’s the fastest scripting language and it’s easy to embed it into the application. The ‘batteries’ can be found in `:h lua.txt`, they’ve grown significantly each release, and you can even use a package manager.
  - wruza 2y ago
    It's easy to start embedding it. Once you get to metatabled userdata with shared-upvalue methods and registry refs, you wish it was just python. The ‘batteries’ can be found in `:h lua.txt` https://neovim.io/doc/user/lua.html https://neovim.io/doc/user/lua.html Reinventing iteration, vim.NIL, empty dict, utf-8, etc. Sorry for the snark, but I'm not surprised in the slightest and have no other emotion for that. They could have that and a whole world of packages and tools out of the box by using virtually any language except Lua.
    - siproprio 2y ago
      do you have any other language in mind that can be embedded into the editor like lua? i remember that sublime text had python, but i don’t remember anything relevant from then.
      - wruza 2y ago
        What do you mean by like Lua? Most scripting languages are embeddable. lang.exe and /usr/bin/lang are just cli frontends to lang dlls and do baseline embedding like `exit(luaL_dofile(L, argv[1]))`, which is one of Lua’s selling points until you start actually binding it to your runtime and this simplicity drowns in necessity of reinvention. I’ve embedded Perl, Python, Lua in real projects. Didn’t touch Node.js, but pretty sure it embeds as well as long as you’re happy to deal with C++. Judging by the experience with C++ modules for node, it’s not that bad, but not that trivial either. Python, js, ts are all fine candidates with massive mature ecosystems. Technically, all you do in embedding is: set up the interpreter, define some modules (or globals), these modules export objects or functions which are implemented in C via embedding API. Then you run scripts from strings or files. These scripts use these modules, e.g. vim .get_tab(3) .get_cur_window() .set(“filetype”, “sh”), or you can add metatable/class sugar on top of it. Nothing unique to Lua there.
siproprio 2y ago
Idk when was this, but i use nvim on the terminal and it is fine, feels faster than vim, even. And vim has bugs too, I have a list of nags that just aren’t going to be fixed on vim that were fixed on neovim. Imho both are just fine.
qup 2y ago
I owe that guy about 2 million keystrokes.
- mejutoco 2y ago
  And he owes you a brand new escape key cap :)