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There are intelligent beings on planet earth with language and culture that we have no idea how to communicate with. Roll the in the idea we'll communicate wit

There are intelligent beings on planet earth with language and culture that we have no idea how to communicate with. Roll the in the idea we'll communicate with them with messages encoded in radio waves, and they'll understand, and it sounds hopelessly optimistic.

babypuncher 2y ago
What alternative technology do you propose aliens would be using to communicate wirelessly across vast distances? Even if something new is eventually discovered (like Star Trek's "subspace"), it stands to reason that any civilization advanced enough to explore their own solar system would have been using radio long before then.
- itishappy 2y ago
  What makes you assume aliens are communicating wirelessly across vast distances? Earth is home to just one species who've developed wireless communication, and we don't broadcast across astronomical distances if we can help it these days.
  - BrandoElFollito 2y ago
    If you stay within the realms of physics, there are no great choices. Electromagnetism is the easiest one, other waves or quantum based ideas are hard (physically speaking). It is very probable that electromagnetic waves are what you start with.
    - itishappy 2y ago
      No arguments here! EM is my career. :) My point is that this limits our search somewhat to just interstellar species, and that's a crazy high bar! The most advanced species we know (us) is still confined to one planet. We'd be difficult to impossible to detect from Alpha Centauri, let alone Andromeda.
- atrus 2y ago
  The issue isn't them using radio, it's that it's on top of another encoding. If someone sent you raw radio data, what's it modulated by? Frequency? Phase? Amplitude? A combination of the three? Is it multiplexed with other data? And then, if you magically figure that out, it's not even in a language you speak? If it's even a spoken language! Good luck haha.
  - jonfw 2y ago
    I don't think we would expect to understand any of their radio data, but we might at least be able to recognize that it's alien in nature
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
      If it is encrypted would it look like noise?
      - dtech 2y ago
        Encryption tries to make the payload look like noises, but the wave patterns are still very much represent standardized symbols.
      - nilamo 2y ago
        I don't think that's an answerable question, unless we assume a lot about the unknown encryption.
  - russfink 2y ago
    Shaka, when the walls fell.
    - shrimp_emoji 2y ago
      Temba, his arms open. Communicating like this must be what it's like being an LLM trying to understand your training data.
- upon_drumhead 2y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_Man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_Man Had a fun thought experiment around using a micro black hole to use gravity for communications
- cratermoon 2y ago
  > any civilization advanced enough to explore their own solar system would have been using radio long before then. Perhaps we just missed the signals? Let's ponder some timescales. The Earth has been around ~4.5 billion years, life began a half billion to a billion years later. It wasn't until about 2 million years ago that the species that was to evolve into modern humans started to use fire. That's 3.498 billion years or so of life before what we might considered civilization. Humans first started using radio about 125 years ago. An instant in cosmic timescales. Powerful broadcast radio signals first showed up in 1930s. We are already starting to transition to lower power point-to-point wireless transmission. That means our radio waves are become far less detectable at stellar distances. Give it another 25 or 50 years and humans might well have gone silent, for all practical purposes, to hypothetical aliens. To have another advanced civilization arise both within detection distance of Earth and in an overlapping instant of time where we might detect each other? The odds are unfathomably tiny.
  - babypuncher 2y ago
    That's all very reasonable to me. I'm not arguing that the lack of alien radio signals indicates the lack of intelligent alien life, rather that it is the only realistic means of identifying a post-industrial civilization from such a great distance. "There could be alien dolphins orbiting Alpha Centauri" doesn't mean a whole lot when they can't do anything that would make their presence known to us 4 million lightyears away.
    - aaronblohowiak 2y ago
      Alpha Centauri is “only” 4 light years, not 4 million light years away (not that it makes a big difference to the argument)
- TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
  Try to demodulate QAM64 without knowing what it is. It will look just like little bit elevated noise. Now imagine that aliens will be using as effective as possible modulation. There is close to zero chance to figure out what is being transferred. Furthermore it also makes no sense to just scream in all directions so you will use highly directed microwave beam or laser. If you are not in the path of such communication, you will hear silence.
Loughla 2y ago
What beings have language and culture other than human?
- nilamo 2y ago
  Dolphins, ants, most birds, wolves...
- jasonpeacock 2y ago
  Whales, elephants, birds, octopus, ...
- wahern 2y ago
  It all depends on how you define language and culture, and that's before you delve into a host of other unstated assumptions. The whole debate is driven by unstated assumptions, or assumptions and thresholds which are more-or-less pulled out of thin air, notwithstanding any associated quantifications. And these assumptions are constantly in flux. For example, once upon a time "tool use" was considered a unique capability of humans, and from that was derived definitions of intelligence, etc. Well, turns out lots of other animals use tools, at least under that original, somewhat simplistic definition. But what's the significance of that fact--that other animals use tools? Does it mean they're also intelligent, just like humans? People have argued as much, but the "tool use" test was basically pulled out of someone's butt to begin with; the fact we all agree other animals use tools, now, doesn't actually imply much of anything. People draw conclusions where none can be drawn. And people establish presumptions and definitions to fit their preferred conclusions.
  - engineer_22 2y ago
    > People draw conclusions where none can be drawn. And people establish presumptions and definitions to fit their preferred conclusions. In furtherance of my point. We struggle enough with interpersonal communication. Communication with intelligent animals, of which the examples are many and diverse, has to this point been unmanageable.

babypuncher 2y ago

What alternative technology do you propose aliens would be using to communicate wirelessly across vast distances? Even if something new is eventually discovered (like Star Trek's "subspace"), it stands to reason that any civilization advanced enough to explore their own solar system would have been using radio long before then.

itishappy 2y ago
What makes you assume aliens are communicating wirelessly across vast distances? Earth is home to just one species who've developed wireless communication, and we don't broadcast across astronomical distances if we can help it these days.
- BrandoElFollito 2y ago
  If you stay within the realms of physics, there are no great choices. Electromagnetism is the easiest one, other waves or quantum based ideas are hard (physically speaking). It is very probable that electromagnetic waves are what you start with.
  - itishappy 2y ago
    No arguments here! EM is my career. :) My point is that this limits our search somewhat to just interstellar species, and that's a crazy high bar! The most advanced species we know (us) is still confined to one planet. We'd be difficult to impossible to detect from Alpha Centauri, let alone Andromeda.
atrus 2y ago
The issue isn't them using radio, it's that it's on top of another encoding. If someone sent you raw radio data, what's it modulated by? Frequency? Phase? Amplitude? A combination of the three? Is it multiplexed with other data? And then, if you magically figure that out, it's not even in a language you speak? If it's even a spoken language! Good luck haha.
- jonfw 2y ago
  I don't think we would expect to understand any of their radio data, but we might at least be able to recognize that it's alien in nature
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 2y ago
    If it is encrypted would it look like noise?
    - dtech 2y ago
      Encryption tries to make the payload look like noises, but the wave patterns are still very much represent standardized symbols.
    - nilamo 2y ago
      I don't think that's an answerable question, unless we assume a lot about the unknown encryption.
- russfink 2y ago
  Shaka, when the walls fell.
  - shrimp_emoji 2y ago
    Temba, his arms open. Communicating like this must be what it's like being an LLM trying to understand your training data.
upon_drumhead 2y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_Man https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hole_Man Had a fun thought experiment around using a micro black hole to use gravity for communications
cratermoon 2y ago
> any civilization advanced enough to explore their own solar system would have been using radio long before then. Perhaps we just missed the signals? Let's ponder some timescales. The Earth has been around ~4.5 billion years, life began a half billion to a billion years later. It wasn't until about 2 million years ago that the species that was to evolve into modern humans started to use fire. That's 3.498 billion years or so of life before what we might considered civilization. Humans first started using radio about 125 years ago. An instant in cosmic timescales. Powerful broadcast radio signals first showed up in 1930s. We are already starting to transition to lower power point-to-point wireless transmission. That means our radio waves are become far less detectable at stellar distances. Give it another 25 or 50 years and humans might well have gone silent, for all practical purposes, to hypothetical aliens. To have another advanced civilization arise both within detection distance of Earth and in an overlapping instant of time where we might detect each other? The odds are unfathomably tiny.
- babypuncher 2y ago
  That's all very reasonable to me. I'm not arguing that the lack of alien radio signals indicates the lack of intelligent alien life, rather that it is the only realistic means of identifying a post-industrial civilization from such a great distance. "There could be alien dolphins orbiting Alpha Centauri" doesn't mean a whole lot when they can't do anything that would make their presence known to us 4 million lightyears away.
  - aaronblohowiak 2y ago
    Alpha Centauri is “only” 4 light years, not 4 million light years away (not that it makes a big difference to the argument)
TheLoafOfBread 2y ago
Try to demodulate QAM64 without knowing what it is. It will look just like little bit elevated noise. Now imagine that aliens will be using as effective as possible modulation. There is close to zero chance to figure out what is being transferred. Furthermore it also makes no sense to just scream in all directions so you will use highly directed microwave beam or laser. If you are not in the path of such communication, you will hear silence.

Loughla 2y ago

What beings have language and culture other than human?

nilamo 2y ago
Dolphins, ants, most birds, wolves...
jasonpeacock 2y ago
Whales, elephants, birds, octopus, ...
wahern 2y ago
It all depends on how you define language and culture, and that's before you delve into a host of other unstated assumptions. The whole debate is driven by unstated assumptions, or assumptions and thresholds which are more-or-less pulled out of thin air, notwithstanding any associated quantifications. And these assumptions are constantly in flux. For example, once upon a time "tool use" was considered a unique capability of humans, and from that was derived definitions of intelligence, etc. Well, turns out lots of other animals use tools, at least under that original, somewhat simplistic definition. But what's the significance of that fact--that other animals use tools? Does it mean they're also intelligent, just like humans? People have argued as much, but the "tool use" test was basically pulled out of someone's butt to begin with; the fact we all agree other animals use tools, now, doesn't actually imply much of anything. People draw conclusions where none can be drawn. And people establish presumptions and definitions to fit their preferred conclusions.
- engineer_22 2y ago
  > People draw conclusions where none can be drawn. And people establish presumptions and definitions to fit their preferred conclusions. In furtherance of my point. We struggle enough with interpersonal communication. Communication with intelligent animals, of which the examples are many and diverse, has to this point been unmanageable.