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> I have seen data presented multiple times showing the relation between a country’s wealth and/or economic freedom and women’s participation in stem fields.

> I have seen data presented multiple times showing the relation between a country’s wealth and/or economic freedom and women’s participation in stem fields. This lines up with my experiences as well. I know plenty of eastern european women, asians and latinas working as programmers. on top of that I've talked to many that didn't know how to code but would ask me to teach them as soon as they heard I was a programmer. yet I have met only a small handful of white women from america that are software engineers. furthermore, the ones that aren't engineers (in general) seem more dismissive of my line of work as if its somehow beneath them.

Der_Einzige 2y ago
If those folks from outside of the USA had been from economically prosperous backgrounds, they too would try to become nurses or caregivers instead of programmers. Gender parity in STEM is a sign of the economic desperation of a countries people. This is a sociological fact which ruffles feathers when it’s stated out loud.
- callalex 2y ago
  Do you have any citations to back up this “fact”?
  - rsanek 2y ago
    take a look at the gender breakdowns for employment in the Nordics. probably the best social support structures / 'equality' in the world, and yet the ratios are among the most extreme anywhere. when you're taken care of, you do what you like. when you have an economic need, you'll take the job that pays and will pull you out of poverty, even if you don't care for it.
    - ivan_gammel 2y ago
      This argument is pretty common, but blaming the victim is wrong. It is not like Nordics solved the problem but women still choose different jobs. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of-working-in-the-worlds-most-equal-countries https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of...
      - Manuel_D 2y ago
        The bigger question is whether there actually is a "victim". Imagine governments started a lottery, where a random selection of women were forced to work in STEM regardless of their preferences. That'd solve the gender disparity overnight! But is that a good thing for women? The reality is that most people want men and women both to be able to freely choose their profession. The underlying debate is whether the disparity is due to choices or some sort of discrimination. Many people - including some in this comment section [1] - insist that anything other than parity is proof of some sort of discrimination. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40929639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40929639
        ivan_gammel 2y ago
        >The underlying debate is whether the disparity is due to choices or some sort of discrimination. It doesn’t look like a debate though. Pro-choice exclusively male crowd pulls the same argument with the stats from nordics again and again without going deeper into what do those numbers mean. There’s no plausible theory explaining why there’s no victim. On pro-discrimination side there’s plenty of arguments (usually coming from people who actually study the subject).
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        > Pro-choice exclusively male crowd It is by no means exclusively male. This is a completely baseless claim on your part. > There’s no plausible theory explaining why there’s no victim. Why is "women enjoy things other than technology" not a plausible theory? The percentage of women working in tech matches the percentage of women who major in it. The percentage of women who major in it matches the percentage of high schoolers and middle schoolers who say they're interested in technology. > On pro-discrimination side there’s plenty of arguments (usually coming from people who actually study the subject). It's always entertaining to see people who insist that there's plenty of arguments, but aren't bothered to make any. What do people who study the subject find? When researchers send out resumes and measure differences in call-backs, women are called back sooner and more frequently than men: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 Studies measuring hiring preferences in universities found a 2:1 preference in favor of women: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1418878112 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1418878112 The pro-discrimination side has to cite non-existent studies: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/20/18232762/gender-diversity-tech-bad-research-recruiting-new-york-times https://www.vox.com/2019/2/20/18232762/gender-diversity-tech...
  - jimbokun 2y ago
    I believe affinity of boys for interacting with "things" and affinity for girls for interacting with "people" has been demonstrated pretty well in studies. (This falls into category of "something I read on the Internet")
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more... It's conjecture as far as what's actually driving this trend, though. Some posit that STEM is "nerdy" in Western countries but not in Asia and the Middle East. Others speculate that gender-egalitarian countries tend to be wealthier, and the disparity in living standards between STEM and non-STEM professions are lower. Basically there's equal interests, but practical necessity is pushing more women into STEM. But both of these are just speculation based on the observed negative correlation between gender-egalitarianism and STEM representation.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Der_Einzige 2y ago

If those folks from outside of the USA had been from economically prosperous backgrounds, they too would try to become nurses or caregivers instead of programmers. Gender parity in STEM is a sign of the economic desperation of a countries people. This is a sociological fact which ruffles feathers when it’s stated out loud.

callalex 2y ago
Do you have any citations to back up this “fact”?
- rsanek 2y ago
  take a look at the gender breakdowns for employment in the Nordics. probably the best social support structures / 'equality' in the world, and yet the ratios are among the most extreme anywhere. when you're taken care of, you do what you like. when you have an economic need, you'll take the job that pays and will pull you out of poverty, even if you don't care for it.
  - ivan_gammel 2y ago
    This argument is pretty common, but blaming the victim is wrong. It is not like Nordics solved the problem but women still choose different jobs. https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of-working-in-the-worlds-most-equal-countries https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20190831-the-paradox-of...
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      The bigger question is whether there actually is a "victim". Imagine governments started a lottery, where a random selection of women were forced to work in STEM regardless of their preferences. That'd solve the gender disparity overnight! But is that a good thing for women? The reality is that most people want men and women both to be able to freely choose their profession. The underlying debate is whether the disparity is due to choices or some sort of discrimination. Many people - including some in this comment section [1] - insist that anything other than parity is proof of some sort of discrimination. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40929639 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40929639
      - ivan_gammel 2y ago
        >The underlying debate is whether the disparity is due to choices or some sort of discrimination. It doesn’t look like a debate though. Pro-choice exclusively male crowd pulls the same argument with the stats from nordics again and again without going deeper into what do those numbers mean. There’s no plausible theory explaining why there’s no victim. On pro-discrimination side there’s plenty of arguments (usually coming from people who actually study the subject).
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        > Pro-choice exclusively male crowd It is by no means exclusively male. This is a completely baseless claim on your part. > There’s no plausible theory explaining why there’s no victim. Why is "women enjoy things other than technology" not a plausible theory? The percentage of women working in tech matches the percentage of women who major in it. The percentage of women who major in it matches the percentage of high schoolers and middle schoolers who say they're interested in technology. > On pro-discrimination side there’s plenty of arguments (usually coming from people who actually study the subject). It's always entertaining to see people who insist that there's plenty of arguments, but aren't bothered to make any. What do people who study the subject find? When researchers send out resumes and measure differences in call-backs, women are called back sooner and more frequently than men: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3672484 Studies measuring hiring preferences in universities found a 2:1 preference in favor of women: https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1418878112 https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1418878112 The pro-discrimination side has to cite non-existent studies: https://www.vox.com/2019/2/20/18232762/gender-diversity-tech-bad-research-recruiting-new-york-times https://www.vox.com/2019/2/20/18232762/gender-diversity-tech...
- jimbokun 2y ago
  I believe affinity of boys for interacting with "things" and affinity for girls for interacting with "people" has been demonstrated pretty well in studies. (This falls into category of "something I read on the Internet")
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more... It's conjecture as far as what's actually driving this trend, though. Some posit that STEM is "nerdy" in Western countries but not in Asia and the Middle East. Others speculate that gender-egalitarian countries tend to be wealthier, and the disparity in living standards between STEM and non-STEM professions are lower. Basically there's equal interests, but practical necessity is pushing more women into STEM. But both of these are just speculation based on the observed negative correlation between gender-egalitarianism and STEM representation.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]